[Russ]

As the title suggests, can I ‘upgrade’ components and turn a student horn into a long-term solution? The reason I ask is that although I rarely play sop, I still have a requirement to own one. However, shelling out $$$$ on a pro sop just isn’t viable.

I’m thinking of upgrading the corks, felts and springs over a period of time. It plays really well but it might need some TLC further down the line due to possible weaknesses the areas already mentioned.

Thanks

 

[Benny]

But a Yamaha 400 series, have it overhauled properly and buy a high quality mouthpiece- Morgan, Klum or the like.
LA studio guy Jeff Driskill plays a yss-475, works just fine for him.

 

[1saxman]

You can improve any horn to its maximum potential simply by making sure it is mechanically sound and fully functional. You cannot change its basic nature. A good mouthpiece is fundamental with any sax, and on sopranos with removable necks, sometimes a different neck can make noticeable improvements. For example, if you have an intermediate grade soprano by a major manufacturer, a neck for their top model might work on it and frequently this will make a difference. But condition and mouthpiece are the two things that that will get the most 'bang for the buck'.

 

[bruce bailey]

If you are considering one of the Asian sopranos from ebay, not worth the trouble. They are not all that bad from a mechanical point but all the tweaking in the world will not fix the intonation issues.

 

[SuperAction80]

If you are considering one of the Asian sopranos from ebay, not worth the trouble. They are not all that bad from a mechanical point but all the tweaking in the world will not fix the intonation issues.

Mostly true, though there are some notable exceptions. The problem with Chinese horns is that it's still a crap shoot. Some are terrible. Others are impressive. Others yet start out impressive, but break down quickly. Regarding good "student" horns, there are a good many that can be recommended. Was there something you were looking at in particular?

 

[milandro]

The most expensive commodity of our times is time.

A technician could (at times) perfect something that isn’t and is only lacking in details and make it better but probably his or her time would cost more than the difference to perfect the imperfections.

Bruce Bailey, by the way, seems to me as one of the MOST qualified people to tell you this (and he has^), he has bought, in the past flutes, piccolos, saxophones, which he has then modified to play to the best of its possibility.

But you still have to start with a well made saxophone. If the saxophone has bad intonation fixing it will be if not impossible very time consuming.

To me the best thing that you can do is to buy a reasonably priced secondhand Yamaha it will be one of the best choices for the money then you may want to have someone to make sure that mechanically everything is well set and you are good to go.

 

[Russ]

Thanks for all the replies, they are much appreciated. Fortunately, there are no intonation issues and that’s using the stock mouthpiece. I’ve owned a YSS475 but sold it a looong time ago as it was rarely called into action. I’d love one again but in the UK they are £1300 to £1500 used, whereas this ‘like new’ Elkhart 300 was £200. Some would say there’s good reason for that, and I would agree in part. The problem I see with some cheap student horns is they go out of whack so quickly, hence the ‘parts upgrade’ question. My mouthpiece will be an Absolute +. I was lucky enough to try one recently and it blew me away, so that’s arriving in a few days. Budget is tight at present, because as well as the Absolute mp, I’ve recently bought a pro tenor and alto. I was thinking maybe throwing ( at the very least ) a decent set of springs at this Elkhart, as it’s a lovely little player. I once hired an Elkhart (80’s or 90’s build) for a days recording session and it served its purpose admirably, and this one here is fairly modern black and gold affair from Taiwan. Not the best, but surely not the worse until the call for sop work picks up and I’m in a position to find a better model. Thanks again for the advice.

 

[JayeLID]

If you are considering one of the Asian sopranos from ebay, not worth the trouble. They are not all that bad from a mechanical point but all the tweaking in the world will not fix the intonation issues.

100% agree.

The question regarding this thread is: "what is your definition of 'student horn' ?

If it is an asian cheapie....you know the ones you see for $250-600 brand new.......indeed, forget it.

But, you see, the following contemporary horns are considered by many, whether erroneously or not, to be 'student horns':

~ Vito-branded Yama or Yama 21, 23, 280, etc

~ Jupiters

~ Modern Evette-Buffets and Buffet 100's

etc, etc....

If you wanna throw in vintage horns, nothing wrong with a Conn Director or 24M, King Empire or Cleveland, Martin Indiana, etc...

(once again I am left shaking my head at the 'best you can do is buy a Yamaha' suggestion....yes, it is ONE of several options, but it is also the 'default' option and there are qualities of other established student models which actually exceed the qualities of a Yama student horn. So, no...there is not one 'best' choice, there are quite a few 'best' choices)

But anyway, you get the drift. These noted above (and others, I mention just teh ones I am confident about having seen enough of 'em) are all several rungs up the ladder from the cheapies. And if you buy one of these (quite cheap second-hand, BTW)...then the only 'transforming' you would ever have to do is with the mouthpiece and reed setup (other than keeping it in good service).

 

[JayeLID]

Thanks for all the replies, they are much appreciated. Fortunately, there are no intonation issues and that's using the stock mouthpiece. I've owned a YSS475 but sold it a looong time ago as it was rarely called into action. I'd love one again but in the UK they are £1300 to £1500 used, whereas this 'like new' Elkhart 300 was £200. Some would say there's good reason for that, and I would agree in part. The problem I see with some cheap student horns is they go out of whack so quickly, hence the 'parts upgrade' question. My mouthpiece will be an Absolute +. I was lucky enough to try one recently and it blew me away, so that's arriving in a few days. Budget is tight at present, because as well as the Absolute mp, I've recently bought a pro tenor and alto. I was thinking maybe throwing ( at the very least ) a decent set of springs at this Elkhart, as it's a lovely little player. I once hired an Elkhart (80's or 90's build) for a days recording session and it served its purpose admirably, and this one here is fairly modern black and gold affair from Taiwan. Not the best, but surely not the worse until the call for sop work picks up and I'm in a position to find a better model. Thanks again for the advice.

OK, well the Elkhart ...which is NOT a model which is readily available in the US but is, or was, popular for a while as a student horn in UK, is a horn which has its defenders/fans in the UK. So apparently it has something going for it other than simply having secured the rights to a storied name (maybe, although if I bought one I would expect that after a while it'd start to un-impress). So one can argue at least it has something more behind it as far as feedback than some others.

Why don't you just buy a used horn ?

You could easily get a Yama 21/23 or Vito-branded equivalent, a Jupiter, probably even a Buffet 100 for under £400 pretty easily. Then you wouldn't have to trouble yourself with much of anything....

Question, BTW....as you 'recently bought a pro tenor and alto'...why embark on this sort of endeavor at all ??? If you just purchased a pro alto, seems like you have a long-term option already, wouldn't that suffice for your alto playing needs ? Or is this just sort of a theoretical question ?

 

[kfoster]

We need to remember that Russ really explained his budget in his second post. He does not want to spend £1300 on an instrument that he will use sparingly. The Yamahas, vintage and even Yanigasawa S6 horns are all going to be in that price range or more once reconditioning is figured in.

In the mid-1990's I was in a similar situation. I ordered a couple of the inexpensive sopranos that the Woodwind/Brasswind was selling. I believe that they were about#200.00 at the time. I figured that they would be terrible would have to be returned. Much to my surprise, after a bit of mixing and matching necks I had a very serviceable instrument. It was no Selmer, but it was not going to be used for recitals. The horn was used for gigs, pit orchestras, and some recording work for over the years with only regular service by good techs. I was really surprised how well it held up. After about 12 years I found a very nice Yanagisawa S6 for a very good price. After a re-pad I had about $1,200.00 into an instrument that is arguably better than the Woodwind horn.....I ended up selling the old Woodwind/brasswind saxophone for more than my original purchase price.

If you find a horn that plays in tune and has a sound you can work with, go for it. The springs will not likely go bad for quite a while with minimal use. Do expect to replace corks and felts pretty quickly. Pads are a crapshoot for sure.

 

[Russ]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

Thanks kfoster, you pretty much nailed it. As my soprano playlist grows ( and my funds replenish themselves in time ) I may revisit the Soprano market, but I've been playing this horn since it arrived a couple of days ago, and I really can't fault it for the money I paid. In my mind it was so cheap it was worth throwing an 'upgrade pack' to it, so to speak.

The question raised "Why embark on this sort of endeavor at all?" Simply put, like you, I'm mad about everything Saxophone. I would rather have a cheap used student soprano with Elkhart stamped on the side than have no soprano at all. Love it or loathe it, there's money in performing Kenny G / smooth Jazz licks to modern audiences, and a couple of miles down the road, this horn will have paid for itself. Even quicker, if I don't need to throw springs or corks at it.

I'm led to believe ( from info gleaned from this forum ) that the Yamaha YTS21 was the same body as that of the YTS61? If that's the case then the 61 is essentially 21 body with superior components and pretty engraving. So, with that in mind is it unreasonable to think maybe this little Elkhart body may well be used in instruments 3 times its price? It certainly plays well enough. If you examine the latest curved Elkhart 300 soprano, the body, fittings, pillars, bell brace etc look identical to the latest Mauriat curved soprano's. I may be totally on the wrong track. Anyhow, I digress.

I'm not a full time musician or technician, where as, many of you here are just that. However, I'm grateful to hear that it's a respected line so it should be fine 'as is'.

Here's a link from a really good dealer in the UK playing the same model I purchased:

 

[KeithL]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

Put me with the group that thinks you could have done a little better than that with just a bit more money and patience. SOTW member Brasscane just sold a nice Bauhaus soprano in near mint condition for $500+ shipping in the Marketplace section. Pretty nice sopranos from Kessler, Antigua, Barone, and other vetted brands come up regularly here for under $1k. That being said, for the infrequent double it sounds like you want it for, the Elkhart will probably be fine. "Upgrading parts" outside of the pads is not really viable and wouldn't buy you much anyway. You don't have much into this so if you find yourself playing more soprano than you expected just sell it and buy a better horn. At that point you'll be able to justify the cost.

 

[saxoclese]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

Changing "springs corks and felts" will not make a mediocre saxophone a better one. What separates a good saxophone from a poor saxophone includes the dimensions inside the bore, the size and placement of the toneholes, and the attention to detail in the construction. That said, I will sometimes replace regular cork with "tech cork" or synthetic felt on the tops of key feet to make regulation more stable or on the underside of the G# arm to give a more positive closing. These changes don't improve how the instrument plays, but make regulation more accurate and stable.

 

[soybean]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

I wouldn't bother trying to improve your horn. if there are a couple of springs that don't feel good just replace those. Play it, enjoy it and buy a better horn a few years from now.

 

[Russ]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

Put me with the group that thinks you could have done a little better than that with just a bit more money and patience. SOTW member Brasscane just sold a nice Bauhaus soprano in near mint condition for $500+ shipping in the Marketplace section. Pretty nice sopranos from Kessler, Antigua, Barone, and other vetted brands come up regularly here for under $1k. That being said, for the infrequent double it sounds like you want it for, the Elkhart will probably be fine. "Upgrading parts" outside of the pads is not really viable and wouldn't buy you much anyway. You don't have much into this so if you find yourself playing more soprano than you expected just sell it and buy a better horn. At that point you'll be able to justify the cost.

Cheers Keith, but it genuinely didn't come down to patience. I've owned a couple of YSS475's, a Selmer SII , Antigua 590SP (Recommended to me by Paul Coates) and several others including a bad experience with a couple of chinese horns over the years (enough to put me off the Bauhuas) but the common trait in every case was they were sat being unused for long periods and I couldn't justify keeping them, especially the Selmer. I absolutely loved the Antigua but as it was left for long periods I spent more time polishing it than I ever did playing it. I'm also in the UK so we have the import duties to add to the final bill when buying overseas. I've been looking at pro models, and was recently tempted by a YSS675 but as you said, maybe I will revisit that kind of horn if and when the need warrants the outlay. I'm sure I could move this horn on and break even at worst, but the enjoyment factor has already out-weighed what I've spent.

 

[whaler]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

If you're "required to play one" spare the audience and your fellow musicians and spend a couple of bucks.
Cheap and soprano aren't a good match.

 

[KeithL]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

Cheers Keith, but it genuinely didn't come down to patience. I've owned a couple of YSS475's, a Selmer SII , Antigua 590SP (Recommended to me by Paul Coates) and several others including a bad experience with a couple of chinese horns over the years (enough to put me off the Bauhuas) but the common trait in every case was they were sat being unused for long periods and I couldn't justify keeping them, especially the Selmer. I absolutely loved the Antigua but as it was left for long periods I spent more time polishing it than I ever did playing it. I'm also in the UK so we have the import duties to add to the final bill when buying overseas. I've been looking at pro models, and was recently tempted by a YSS675 but as you said, maybe I will revisit that kind of horn if and when the need warrants the outlay. I'm sure I could move this horn on and break even at worst, but the enjoyment factor has already out-weighed what I've spent.

Agreed - then I'd just play it and enjoy it for what it's worth and if you feel the need for a better instrument down the road you have a fair amount of experience to draw from.

It seems to me if you've gone through that many sopranos over years that you aren't really sure how committed you are to playing it. You buy them and then after not playing them very much you move them along instead of keeping the money tied up. A cheap one may be just what you need since even if you don't play it much you won't feel too bad just holding on to it.

 

[Russ]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

it seems to me if you've gone through that many sopranos over years that you aren't really sure how committed you are to playing it. You buy them and then after not playing them very much you move them along instead of keeping the money tied up.

^^ this is 100% correct. ^^

 

[Russ]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

If you're "required to play one" spare the audience and your fellow musicians and spend a couple of bucks.
Cheap and soprano aren't a good match.

In many cases, I would agree with that statement but in this particular case, the only concern I had was durability. Lack of brand knowledge was the issue here, not intonation

 

[turf3]

Re: Transforming a cheap student horn into a viable long term option

Ahhh, just go on and buy a Buescher True Tone and be done with it.