[iceman]

So I would like to find some tools to really learn these topics and master them. I have some of the Jamey Abersold books, including Maiden Voyage, ii-V-I, and just picked up the Patterns for Improvisation. I have a basic understanding of chords, being a triad and how they're built. In addition, about modes such as the Dorian (2nd degree), being a minor for the major key it's derived from. I also understand that with the dorian minor chords you can fit the other minors within that chord (such as D harmonic minor will sound good on D dorian aka the Dorian mode for C Major). So really now is trying to figure out how to learn this stuff, and then apply it to my everyday playing.

The next thing would be how to learn a new song and be able to just improvise on it without actually knowing what chords are being played. My thinking behind it normally, is to figure out the key signature and go from there. Then again that leads me to the same results and not being able to sound like a "mature" improviser. I understand I should listen to other players and go from there, but I would like to get to the point where I can take a song and sound more professional and improvise the way I want on each song without sounding like I am doing the same exact thing.

 

[whamptoncourt]

You have another very similar thread you started and had most of the feedback that should have given you some clues. https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?365674-Road-to-learning-improvisation

Maybe you should re-read those answers as they are likely to be the same. If you're trying to learn to play in a strictly academic manner it's like "painting by the numbers" you are NOT on a direct trajectory towards becoming a creative improvisor. If you have any talent/ability you need to be immersed in the music and hear the lines you wish to play. If you can't hear anything or even follow the melody, then go ahead and do the cut and paste "paint by the numbers" thing, have fun.

If you can hear lines to play, then the big challenge is to make the instrument your voice and to be able to play what you hear. Having a musical education is always a good thing, especially developing a mental musical library that gives you lots of ideas. However trying to learn to improvise by theory I wouldn't recommend if you have even a modicum of talent. You need to HEAR what you are playing, not just blow and hit keys that fit a predetermined formulaic pattern, or to continually regurgitate a bunch of finger memory patterns that came from some great player half a century ago.

Real improvisation starts with each individual player expressing themselves. It's not a formulae to be laid down for each and every occasion. It's you singing through your horn.

 

[skeller047]

So I would like to find some tools to really learn these topics and master them. I have some of the Jamey Abersold books, including Maiden Voyage, ii-V-I, and just picked up the Patterns for Improvisation. I have a basic understanding of chords, being a triad and how they're built. In addition, about modes such as the Dorian (2nd degree), being a minor for the major key it's derived from. I also understand that with the dorian minor chords you can fit the other minors within that chord (such as D harmonic minor will sound good on D dorian aka the Dorian mode for C Major). So really now is trying to figure out how to learn this stuff, and then apply it to my everyday playing.

The next thing would be how to learn a new song and be able to just improvise on it without actually knowing what chords are being played. My thinking behind it normally, is to figure out the key signature and go from there. Then again that leads me to the same results and not being able to sound like a "mature" improviser. I understand I should listen to other players and go from there, but I would like to get to the point where I can take a song and sound more professional and improvise the way I want on each song without sounding like I am doing the same exact thing.

I've read the thread referred to by the previous reply, and concur, but would like to add two points.

1) I cannot imagine being able to improvise on a tune without knowing the chord changes. (I mean, unless the tune itself had no changes...) Even if learning "by ear" (that is, learning to play a tune by listening to it instead of reading it) I would have an understanding of the changes, at least functionally. I might be wrong about an extension or substitution here or there, but not about the function of a particular chord or where it's going.

2) The best "tools" for doing this are those two floppy things attached behind and below your eyes.

Try different stuff and see how it sounds, if you like how it sounds then try to build an understanding of that sound and maybe an understanding of why YOU like it! That's all theory is, an explanation of what sounds good. No problem studying books, but you have to build that sonic architecture from the inside or it will never be of any use to you.

 

[lydian]

The next thing would be how to learn a new song and be able to just improvise on it without actually knowing what chords are being played. My thinking behind it normally, is to figure out the key signature and go from there.

Knowing just the key signature won't get you very far on a jazz tune. For example, knowing "All the Things You Are" is in Bb won't prepare you for all the different key centers and chords in that tune. As soon as you hit measure 5 of the head, you're screwed. When you hit the bridge, you're REALLY screwed.

 

[bokagee]

There aren't a lot of shortcuts. I'd recommend taking online lessons from some of the people here, specific to playing and improvising Jazz. Self-study can be like re-inventing the wheel!

 

[rcpayne]

It's a bit early to be worrying about chord substitutes at your stage. You need to learn how to play inside first. You know, learn how to walk before you try to run kind of thing. I've always thought the learning aspect was fascinating and fun. So have fun with it without biting off more than you can chew.