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Hi, I've got a 1970 toneking low Bb Bari, in good shape but needing some cares (some pads seems old, missing corks and felts in some keys, and I hate the octave machanism). I think it may be a 500€ job to be restored in pristine conditions, but I still have to take it to the shop.
Is it worth it? Or it's an intermediate level horn, and it may be better to put the money in a true American vintage sax, and try to sell this one?
I play the saxophone from 15 years, I'm into Dixieland and big band stuff so I've always wondered about trading the horn or not...
Thanks for the advices, and merry Christmas ;)

Mlibardoni
 

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They are absolutely great Baritones. Absolutely worth quite a bit of money . One in Great shape would be worth €1500 ( I have sold two to a shop owner in Germany for €1250 so he would have sold them for at least €2000).

I have had a number. They are very powerful in volume and roundness of sound and certainly have a more modern keywork than the majority of American baritones. Their intonation is very good.

I have no Idea where you live ( 500â ????) but here in the NL a repad will cost from €350 to €800.
 

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A Keilwerth baritone in good condition is worth investing in, especially since you already own it.
 

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I had a King Tempo Baritone which was made by Keilwerth.
Whilst I did like the horn, the octave mechanism was a real pain.
It never worked properly.
Likely due to the pathetically weak springs used on it.
It was frustrating enough for me that I let the horn go in trade when the opportunity arose.
In hindsight I possibly could have had it improved by a decent tech, but i am happy with my decision to trade it on a YBS61.
 

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He appears to be located in your previous homeland, Italy.
Cheers Mike :), so it is a very good investment, Baritones are far and few between in Italy. There are also not too many technicians there and a repad may cost more than here.

I have never had any problem with the octave mechanism.
 

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These are as close as you will get to an 'American Sound' from a European horn. Don't know why the octave mech should cause trouble....compared to a Conn 12 M which is positively neanderthal!-they are quite slick. I think they are great bari's... I've got one!
 

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Absolutely fantastic instruments. In order to get mine playing great I need to have a new neck receiver fabricated and also you should have the bell removed from the bow and re-solder it. As I did with mine. These are two notorious defects in these horns and once addressed, these horns are absolute killers.
 

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Never experience that either
 

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Well, I have had several and never even remotely felt that the receiver and tenon were weak, There are many series and the series IV, my favorite, hasn’t got that at all.

 

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Well, I have had several and never even remotely felt that the receiver and tenon were weak, There are many series and the series IV, my favorite, hasn’t got that at all.

It all depends how the instruments were treated by former owners. Many on the used market are former school band horns and are in very bad shape. I've had to replace the neck tenon receiver on my own horn in fact and the top bow was very damaged too.
 

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In continental Europe there are not many school bands. Instruments are treated way better here that they are in the US school bands.

Latenite sax was talking of inherent weakness which is not my experience at all! I doubt there are many Keilwerth (or even their Couf or King incarnation ) in the US.

There are lots of things people say because they have read it on line.
 

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You'd be surprised Milandro how many JK/D&J horns there are in USA-mine came from there for instance-it is stencilled 'La Sete'. Herb Couf was quite influential in USA/ German co-operation and of course became CEO of the Armstrong company which is common knowledge. These JK and various stencils would be classed as 'student' quality which as we know-perhaps in hindsight- is totally erroneous.
I agree with you regarding 'inherent weakness' they are solid and well made, but, neck receivers take a lot of punishment even in good hands and all high end modern horns nowadays have almost industrial strength neck sockets compared to earlier models.
 

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well, if that is so I don’t see all tat many for sale and No they are not student’s quality horns.

There is nothing inherently weak in the build of any of these Keilwerth saxophones which personally I find way better built than some other US made saxophones. I have had two Buescher made Emperor for Boosey and Hawkes baritones that were good horns but could have certainly learned a thing of two about the way they were put together by the people at Keilwerth.

Some Armstrongs (may not be the baritones) were made with the same parts but were not made in Germany.
 

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I think it is necessary to discern between damage which may be intrinsic to a flawed design/specification...and damage which is due to neglect.

I believe in all of the JK's I have done, I only had to replace a neck receiver once (out of at least 50 horns). Likewise, having to unsolder and resolder a body/bow/bell ferrule ?

Never.

Unsoldering and fixing dented/bashed upper bows ? Most certainly...but clearly not damage due to the quality of construction in any way; but rather as Bopity said...due to who's hands the horn landed in.

Yes, a good # of JK's pre-'90's on this side of the pond. Besides this just being due to Herb Couf, I would posit that JK was VERY open to contracting with small distributors here in the US, and quite accessible to them.
TAM stencils are just one example. Simply a New King stencil which was contracted to a SINGLE brick n' mortar music shop in Portland back in the day..."Tam" having been the name of the music shop owner's dog. (Yes, really).
Might there have been a 'middle man' ? Yes, maybe. But stocking/offering the New Kings apparently was not a very difficult proposition for a small, independent shop - in a city which, at the time, could appropriately have been described as a 'backwater'.
 

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I think it is necessary to discern between damage which may be intrinsic to a flawed design/specification...and damage which is due to neglect.
What Jaye said!!!!!

Let me illustrate by giving you an example from my personal experience: Selmer Mark VI receivers have never been described as being "weak", yet when I got my relacquered, war horse 20+ years ago, the receiver was the weak spot, and I knew that it would eventually need replacing. It showed signs of being worked on in the past, and the metal was very thin. Although it still sealed tight, I took great care to make sure that I didn't damage it further. Last year when I had the horn overhauled, my trusty bari finally got it much-deserved replacement part.

How did this 1967 bari end up in such a state? Who knows, but it most likely was a school horn. I didn't care, I bought it entirely for its sound, not for its looks or future sales value. The point is, I don't assume all Selmer baris have weak receivers based on my experience--as a matter of fact, based on Selmer baris I have played and seen, mine was an anomaly.

View attachment 223246
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hi guys :)
Sorry for disappearing for the holidays.
I have the same IV series as Milandro, but the "u-section support" (don't know the actual name...the mustache shaped rod that holds the upper part in place) was resoldered by the previous owner, and I don't know if it was damaged.
Issue with octave mechanism occurs mostly when switching the octave mechanism from a to anything lower. Could easily be a too weak spring but it's quite annoying.
As for the bow issue, I've experienced something like that, as the bow slightly turned left, and my tech told me the beam connecting body and bow is not the smartest design ever. But after have it streighten, I have never experienced troubles in that.
After reading all the comments I'm going to have it overhauled BTW ;) thanks for the answers and sharing your knowledge
 
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