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Theo Wanne Mouthpieces and their ligatures

21K views 114 replies 34 participants last post by  Spooner 
#1 ·
Hi All

I currently use a Theo Wanne Gai 2 Metal mouthpiece but yesterday decided to get out the Hard Rubber equivalent which I haven't used in a while.

Personally I prefer to use the metal version pure and simply because it has a built in ligature which is useable and feels more comfortable in my mouth whilst the HR version has that dreadful metal ring ligature that never keeps the reed in place when you try and tighten it so its always a real hassle putting a reed on and keeping it in the right place.

The HR seems to create a better sound when playing some songs whilst the metal one seems to be able to generate more power and has a punchier aspect to it but that just may be because I havent used the HR one in a while but the biggest difference imo is that the HR seems to handle saliva build up inside the chamber better than the metal one with the latter always generating that saliva moving around the mouthpiece swirling noise.

Anyway this is not a post about HR v Metal but an enquiry as to what people think about the ligature approach by Theo Wanne?

I cant understand why they have a built in one for the metal and a very unpractical more or less unuseable one for the HR mouthpiece.

In fact I use a Rovner on the HR as it seems to hold a reed much better and tbh am thinking of doing the same for the metal one too as even that built in one isnt ideal.

Just be interested to hear everyone elses thoughts on this aspect of ligatures for Theo Wanne mouthpieces and whether anyone else has done similar or tried to substitute the original ones with alternatives

Although I am no expert on sax or on mouthpieces and/or ligatures I cant help but feel that the ligature approach on Theo Wanne mouthpieces are more for show and a gimmick rather than some kind of superior design for ligatures. and superior and/or optimal performance
 
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#2 · (Edited)
For me, radial screws are mostly a pain, and a geometrical nonsense. Furthermore, TW’s stuff makes it an additional pain to cover your reed during breaks. On their HR pieces, you can use other ligs and caps, dunno about their current metal pieces. The older metal models I played (Brahma and Datta) could also take any lig & cap.
 
#4 ·
Although I am no expert on sax or on mouthpieces and/or ligatures I cant help but feel that the ligature approach on Theo Wanne mouthpieces are more for show and a gimmick rather than some kind of superior design for ligatures. and superior and/or optimal performance
[/QUOTE]

I agree with the OP and don't use the TW ligature for HR.
Although I like TW's built-on lig for metal, Dexdex makes a good point about the difficulty of capping the reed.
Certainly a lot of room for improvement by TW.
 
#5 ·
I have a TW Gaia, the hard rubber version. While it's a very good mp imo, the ligature was obviously designed to be obnoxious. Yes, it works well, if you're ever able to actually get it attached successfully to the mouthpiece (try doing that in a dark nightclub). The idea of the lig may be good, but the execution is a nightmare. If I was going to use the piece, I'd put a Silverstein on it, a lig that not only sounds better imo but is functionally superior and utterly simple to use (it takes about 3 seconds to get it secured).

Theo Wanna needs to toss that lig in the dustbin and redesign it, if they don't want this kind of feedback constantly. I don't usually rail against gear, but that thing deserves it.


Turtle
 
#6 ·
#7 ·
Yeah I kind of agree. I have a Shiva with the built in and the Datta with a Silverstein and prefer the latter. I was also having a problem with y tone (9 facing) and went from a Fibracell 3 to a 2) What a difference! much fuller. Low B still need to get my breath right on the 2 but otherwise a revelation.
 
#8 ·
Well have to be honest and say that I really like both mouthpieces but its just a tremendous shame about the ligature(s) problems

Its obviously something that they must be aware of so it begs the question as to why they haven't done anything about it.

I recall someone from TW who works for him/them used to post on here.....any chance of an explanation as to what plans there are to change things if any such plans exist at all?
 
#9 ·
Theo's ligs are just okay, not great but better than the lousy ring ligs that Jody Jazz and Drake send with their pieces. I suspect the difference between the lig setup on the metal and HR pieces is due partially to cost but also because I don't think hard rubber is structurally strong enough to handle the load created by the configuration used on the metal pieces.
 
#93 ·
The Strathon and or Zinner adjustatone Mouthpieces have a slide on ligature somewhat like a Lawton.
It works well and has stood the test of time.
Has far more adjustment forward to back than the TW built in ligature.
So a built in ligature on a HR piece is certainly doable and can also be practical.
 
#12 ·
I want to give Theo the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's marketed his ligatures because he thinks they work and sound great, not simply as a gimmick.

And, IMO, the attached ligatures on the metal mouthpieces work really well and are very convenient. OTOH I have experienced the same drawbacks others report about the Enlightened ligatures: they're difficult to position, and it can be hard to adjust the mouthpiece on the neck without knocking the lig off kilter.

Fortunately, there are any number of other ligatures that will fit Theo's mouthpieces, so it's not as if you're required to use an Enlightened if you want use a HR Gaia. (And, for that matter, you also just detach TW's ligature from the metal Gaia and use any one of several alternatives.)

My only issue with TW's gear is the price: to me, there are other mouthpieces out there for half the price that are at least equally good, but then that is largely a matter of personal taste. I tried a couple different models of the Gaia, and I thought it was an excellent piece, but a little too free blowing for me: I wanted a little more resistance. Your results may vary.
 
#13 ·
I wouldn't want a lig included with my mpc. I would rather pay less and use a lig of my own choice. What are the odds everyone that plays the same model mpc prefers the same lig as well?

I suppose there could be some pieces where it comes with the only lig that fits them. Sort of like thousand dollar phones that are only compatible with products made by the same company... better yet, your mpc is outdated and is no longer compatible with music! Trade in your latest model and receive $10 off your next $500 mpc!
 
#14 ·
I love the ligature included with Theo’s metal pieces. It was a pain to modify the mouthpiece cap to fit, but it was worth it. I bought Theo’s mouthpiece cap and melted notches in it with a soldering iron in order to better fit around the ligature screws. Theo should really improve the design of the mouthpiece cap to be a good fit for the mouthpiece without modification. For all hard rubber pieces, including SYOS, I think the included ligatures are ridiculous but I love my Rovner MK3 on every hard rubber mouthpiece I have ever played. No need to reinvent the hard rubber mouthpiece ligature.
 
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#17 ·
I have a TW Shiva 2 metal with the built in ligature and think it works great! The positioning of the reed becomes very consistent, and it´s especially convenient when you need to change reed in a hurry. I don´t like the TW caps though, so I use a Francois Louis Smart Cap instead. Not sure exactly which size it is, but it fits very well.

/Saxray
 
#24 ·
Since you already have the mpcs and seem to like them, the answer is really very simple. Just get a lig for each mpc that fits well (that's the important thing) and isn't too 'fiddly'. A simple 2-screw lig or any number of different ligs are on the market that will fit those mpcs.
 
#23 ·
I'm a big proponent of being able to easily switch the position of my lig either closer or further from the pointy end of the mouthpiece. The Theo Wanne metal ligs do NOT allow doing that without a teeny leetly tool (definitely not doable on the bandstand!). If my reed is too hard, I'll "choke up" with my lig, that is, move the ligature closer to the tip of the mouthpiece. Likewise, I can get a little bit more of a resistant feeling on a too-soft reed if I move the lig further away from the tip.
I'm not talking about a lot of distance between one end of my little ligature range and the other -- probably not more than 3/16" on tenor, but for me I find it is another thing that helps me.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I used to sell ligs but found that no matter what you sell or supply someone will always be unhappy. I decided to focus on the mouthpiece. Picking a lig for someone is like deciding what reeds they should use....or horn for that matter.

inlike Theo’s ligs too but I can understand that it might be difficult to manage the enlightened lig in dark gig situations where you have to move quickly. Id say the same with the FL ligs. In general, however, I prefer a lig that provides top down pressure. Infeel its ideal for pieces with flat tables and affords minimal stress to the mouthpiece body.
 
#35 ·
I do like the mouthpieces - just disappointed in the ligs thats all

Have changed the HR one for a Rovner and use the metal one 'as is' but reckon will remove that too in time and use another Rovner because sometimes it just feels a bit too tight when I am unscrewing it and I dont like the way you have to unscrew and screw it up from both sides as I am sure it would be easy to buckle the arms as you seem to have to alternate with half screws from one side to the other.

Just poorly designed IMO.

I find the Rovners are easy to tighten and provide even pressure over the reed holding it firmly in place but as mentioned previously am not good enough to notice any discernible difference between mouthpieces or ligatures sound wise so its about ease of use and practicalities for me

The mouthpieces themselves I would score 10/10 (probably because I dont know any better and havent much to compare them with) but the hard rubber ligature I give 1/10 and the metal one 4/10

Glad some people like them and yes 100% of people will never be totally happy but would guess that a large proportion of people find them cumbersome and inconvenient ligature wise

Just cant believe that TW havent come up with something better because I am certainly put off from buying their mouthpieces in future as and when that time arises.

Then again next time I will be more experienced and will take some ligatures with me when testing out future mouthpieces and most likely opt for mouthpieces that are ligature free.
 
#36 ·
Have changed the HR one for a Rovner and use the metal one 'as is' but reckon will remove that too in time and use another Rovner because sometimes it just feels a bit too tight when I am unscrewing it and I dont like the way you have to unscrew and screw it up from both sides as I am sure it would be easy to buckle the arms as you seem to have to alternate with half screws from one side to the other.
A little confused by that, but if you want a lig that tightens evenly from both sides, the Vandoren M|O, Optimum and leather ligs all have it. If you don't like the leather one, you can take the hardware out and put in in a Rovner. Over the pond there's a GF brand lig that has the same type of 'mechanism.'
 
#37 ·
It would be nice if TW offered his new HR mouthpieces without his "enlightened" lig. I was horribly disappointed by all the trappings and self promotion when it was painfully obvious that it was a very poorly designed lig that wouldn't allow the slightest adjustment without everything going askew. How unsusal is it to have to go out and play a gig without warming up your instrument for 10 minutes? Yea, it's usually the way it happens. So you've pushed on and then need to back off the nouthpiece when it all warms up to get back to being in tune. That's where it all goes sideways with TW's "enlightened" lig. "Hey everybody stop the music, my expensive hyped lig just slipped and I need to spend a few minutes putting it back together! " The only thing that felt (en) lightened was my wallet. I felt offended by it after paying new price and then given a lig that was crap when almost any cheap Chinese lig is better. I have not purchased a new TW since, and never will. Are you listening TW???
 
#39 ·
FWIW

I wrote to Theo Wanne expressing my concerns about the ligs on HR and Metal Gaia 2's and got this response about the HR lig but nothing on the metal lig

Guess we will have to wait and see what develops but at least they responded so credit them for that and at least they are aware of concerns I and obviously many others also have

Thanks for your message and for letting us know about your concerns.

I've forwarded the message on to Theo for review, as he is always looking for ways to improve.

I can tell you, we're in the middle of redesigning the HR ligature to have some more contact with the mouthpiece and avoid the issue you mentioned. It will likely take a number of months before it is ready, however.
 
#50 ·
And a further follow up response from Theo Wanne

Thank you for taking the time to write and share your experience.

Indeed we have had many share the experience of the ligature moving to much with the HR ligature. We are working on a design for the future that will move around less. I do realize that is an issue. In the beginning I designed it primarily for the best possible sound, but have come to find that to have move less is of great importance too.

The good new with that size body, many ligatures on the market should work on it. Our newest model hard rubber GAIA 3 is a smaller body size, and we do have a more standard screw type ligature for it as it is not a standard size like the GAIA 2.

Regarding the tenor, I actually have not gotten the feedback you gave on that one before. For the most part people have liked that they don't have to 'find' their favorite ligature again, once it is positioned in the right spot. I have not heard of the issue with the pressure plate shape either, but I will investigate more.

Thank you so much for helping improve our products with your feedback, it is appreciated.
 
#42 ·
Maybe I’m in the minority. I have a metal Durga and Gaia and I like the ease of the built-in ligature. I would never try to change the position of the lig during a gig as that is asking for trouble. But I’ve done it a number of times, at my kitchen table, with good lighting, and wearing my glasses! It seems to have held up just fine. I also played my Durga with a Rovner for about a year. Not because of any difficulty with the built-in lig, but because I was trying to take off a little edge and darken it up just a bit. I don’t think it did too much. I haven’t noticed a big difference in ligature as far as sound goes. Maybe the power of suggestion, but not much more, although I wouldn’t discount it totally. I think all of our gadgets have more of an affect on the player’s end and how it feels more than how it sounds. I’m all for making it feel better and more comfortable for us. I had a Silverstein (came on the used mouthpiece I bought, I know, right?) that I used for a good while. It felt terrific. But every time I tried to make any adjustment or even put my mouthpiece on the horn, it slid, and I had to start over. It wasn’t worth the aggravation, so I sold it. Anyway, I wound up putting the built-in lig on the Durga simply because it was more convenient and that was one less thing I had to worry about dropping or searching inside my case for at a dark gig. (They are almost all dark!)
I’ve also experienced good customer service with the people at TW. Spooner, who works at TW, even responds to posts and private messages on here.
 
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