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Dear Whamptoncourt,

I am very sorry to hear you feel cheated. That is a very strong word, and is actually very surprising for me to hear.

As I stated, the ligature has won awards, and gotten a lot of positive reviews and feedback. There are many ligatures that move 'more easily' than ours, and you are the first person to call it 'faulty'... and we have been making it for years. I also don't think 'The Sax' magazine would have rated it the #1 ligature if they thought it was faulty;)

That said, I do appreciate your feedback, which helps me dial in product:) I am always improving our products, and one of my projects is finding a way to keep the Enlightened ligature sounding so good (or hopefully even better), but also move less easily. It is a hard task, as the mouthpiece body can deaden the ligature body vibration.

That said, I believe the mouthpiece version you have takes a standard size tenor hard rubber ligature. I will be more than happy to send you a couple (I have a drawer full of different brands), and hopefully one will allow you to enjoy your mouthpiece more. I do want you to feel heard and supported! Please email the company directly, and I will get those out to you:)
 

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As said I do feel that the lig was a poor design from the standpoint of a person who is playing and it fails to keep the reed securely on when even slightly moved (a necessity for most of us). The other feedback in this thread certainly confirms that opinion. If your lig has superior playing characteristics that's nice, although not IMHO that's not as important as keeping the reed securely on the mouthpiece.

You've acknowledged that it's in need of a redesign, and have graciously offered to replace the lig. However most of us didn't pay for a used ordinary ligature, we paid for a ligature that (as you say) was rated so highly. Can you imagine our disappointment? I would prefer to receive the ligature that lives up to that rating, which hopefully you are now making.

If you'd like I can be a test guinea pig if you'd like to send along a prototype. Does that seem fair?

Cheers.
 

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Really? Perhaps it is wise to stick to speaking for yourself. I dont really remember a representative being elected to be the chief of the ligature police.

You realistically expect a recall? Its not a car with a bad airbag. Every lig has its advantages and disadvantages. I dont think Rovners seal well. Am I in a position to demand a full recall on every cloth lig?
Id feel pretty silly.
 

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Really? Perhaps it is wise to stick to speaking for yourself. I dont really remember a representative being elected to be the chief of the ligature police.

You realistically expect a recall? Its not a car with a bad airbag. Every lig has its advantages and disadvantages. I dont think Rovners seal well. Am I in a position to demand a full recall on every cloth lig?
Id feel pretty silly.
With all due respect Phil: What was paid for was claimed to be an award winning ligature, not a cheap rovner lig. Using your car analogy it's like buying a (supposedly) "car of the year" that was only judged for its looks, but has faulty brakes. There's a fatal flaw that makes this ligature basically unusable for anyone who needs to adjust the mouthpiece for tuning purposes. It fails most of the time when adjusted. Read back in this thread. It's about a whole lot of disappointed buyers, it's not just me. Theo has the opportunity to cover this and do right by his customers or suffer the consequences to his reputation. It's that simple.

It's admirable that you would come to the defense of a fellow mouthpiece maker who could have been simply seen as a competitor. That says a lot for you as a person. I'm still waiting for Theo to do the right thing by all who are dissatisfied.
 

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With all due respect Whamptoncourt, I agree fully with Phil here.

I've tried to be professional and respectful to you, but your opinion that the Enlightened lig is faulty for EVERYONE is simply wrong. You can see years and years of videos of people HAPPILY using the ligature on videos. This includes very big names I work with who help me design product and have never stated an issue with the ligature, ever!

You are stating your personal opinion here, not a 'truth'.

I am happy to help you find a ligature that works for you if you contact me personally. That stands. But his conversation now needs to be over.

Respectfully, Theo
 

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If there was not a problem why are you in the process of redesigning it? Let's get real here! You sold us a mouthpiece with supposedly a great lig. You refused to sell us a mouthpiece without the lig, so we paid for something that for a whole lot of us doesn't work in doing its single most basic job. It doesn't hold the reed securely in place. This was also reported in Steve Neff's review. You've taken this information in and decided to do a redesign. That's based on recognizing a fault. We applaud your decision to correct it. The only thing left to do is also replace the ligature for those who are not satisfied. Since you think most are satisfied, then there shouldn't be many to replace.

This is your reputation man. I've made myself clear about wishing a replacement that meets the quality statements that you made. My personal option (I speak for nobody else) is to never purchase a product of yours again. However I would certainly encourage others to do likewise. Voting with our wallets is ultimate way to show our displeasure with a product and a maker that doesn't stand behind their product.
 

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I agree with Theo. Any real discussion of this issue is over.
whamptoncourt has his options. We don’t need to transfer any more electrons about this
 

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I agree with Theo. Any real discussion of this issue is over.
whamptoncourt has his options. We don't need to transfer any more electrons about this
Are you the same Charlie J who posted:
"Although I am no expert on sax or on mouthpieces and/or ligatures I cant help but feel that the ligature approach on Theo Wanne mouthpieces are more for show and a gimmick rather than some kind of superior design for ligatures. and superior and/or optimal performance."

Sorry Charlie. As far as I'm concerned the discussion just got to the meat of the problem, and you're also a person who isn't satisfied and said it in a very forceful way. It's crunch time for Theo to do what's right and stand behind his product and claims or let us know he's grateful for our $$ and doesn't want to otherwise know us.

In my "day job" I also produce products. When/if they fail to please I offer a refund or replacement to keep my customers happy. That's standard business practice. What's being asked for is absolutely normal for anyone providing a product.

The offer of a cheap used ligature as a replacement somehow just doesn't make up for an expensive ligature that didn't work for me, for you, and a whole lot of other people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Are you the same Charlie J who posted:
"Although I am no expert on sax or on mouthpieces and/or ligatures I cant help but feel that the ligature approach on Theo Wanne mouthpieces are more for show and a gimmick rather than some kind of superior design for ligatures. and superior and/or optimal performance."

Sorry Charlie. As far as I'm concerned the discussion just got to the meat of the problem, and you're also a person who isn't satisfied and said it in a very forceful way. It's crunch time for Theo to do what's right and stand behind his product and claims or let us know he's grateful for our $$ and doesn't want to otherwise know us.

In my "day job" I also produce products. When/if they fail to please I offer a refund or replacement to keep my customers happy. That's standard business practice. What's being asked for is absolutely normal for anyone providing a product.

The offer of a cheap used ligature as a replacement somehow just doesn't make up for an expensive ligature that didn't work for me, for you, and a whole lot of other people.
I think you will find that Charlie J was quoting part of my original opening post so you are mistakenly attributing my comment to him

Didn't realize I was going to be opening up such a can of worms when starting this thread

My main point was that the HR ligature was highly impractical to the point of being unusable as every time you adjust it the reed gets knocked out of place

The metal version lig (which comes attached to the mouthpiece) is not ideal but at least its useable

Perhaps the moral of the story is that you should try everything out first and if not happy do not get it

I purchased my first Gaia 2 (HR) on the advice of my teacher who also happens to endorse TW mouthpieces and I purchased it from a shop without trying or testing it out first.

I was under the impression you could get a mouthpiece and keep it for two weeks before deciding to buy it or have it replaced (as long as you hadnt damaged it).

Anyway I bought it and then quickly discovered I couldnt use the HR mouthpiece ligature so replaced it with an alternate one made by others

The metal version I purchased directly from my teacher at a discounted price and tbh preferred the feel of it in my mouth to the HR version and have stuck with that since.

Both are 7* size and previous to that I had been using a 5 Yanigasawa mouthpiece which came with my first horn for about 16 months so they were my first upgrade

Since then I have used a Rovner on the HR (only use it sporadically) and have the metal one for every day use but as I am currently in need of a new mouthpiece pad for that have been using the HR for the last week or so.

Personally I think a fair assessment of the HR ligature would be to describe it as poorly designed in the sense that it makes it very difficult to use it in a practical sense which is disappointing because the mouthpieces are excellent products (according to my limited sax experience and knowledge)

I guess I would liken it to buying a Bentley only to find that despite leather seats and walnut trim they replaced the steering wheel with a walnut wooden stick - it would just be inferior to the rest of the cars fine engineering and as such detract from what would otherwise be a luxury vehicle as it would make the car extremely difficult to steer. It would still work but you would have great difficulty controlling the direction in which the car moved

Whilst the ligature seems to be made of quality materials and to a high standard it just doesnt do the basic function of holding the reed in place so that whenever you try and adjust the mouthpiece you knock the red out of place.

Perhaps a more fitting description then would be to say that the HR mouthpiece ligature is not 'ideally' fit for purpose but at least the problem has been acknowledged and is being addressed

Anyway I am rambling now and the point of the post is to point out its my quote and not Charlie J's
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
PS Where can I find Theo Wanne Tenor HARD Mouthpiece pads/patches in The UK (SEE OTHER THREAD) - nobody seems to have them in stock and I have had 2 packs on order since 13 November and have no clue if and when I will ever get them (ordered from a UK firm who advertises them and not from TW directly).
 

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Anyway I am rambling now and the point of the post is to point out its my quote and not Charlie J's

Thank you hdemet for getting me off that hook!
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Anyway I am rambling now and the point of the post is to point out its my quote and not Charlie J's

Thank you hdemet for getting me off that hook!
I thought we were talking about ligatures?

....... but if you want to expand the discussion to neck strap hooks..........

Would that be a metal one or a plastic one ;-)
 

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Buyer buys product.
Buyer doesn’t like product.
Buyer has choice not to purchase product again.
That’s called capitalism. It’s worked pretty well for us so far.

Seller offers to send another product at no charge.
That’s called above and beyond.
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
Buyer buys product.
Buyer doesn't like product.
Buyer has choice not to purchase product again.
That's called capitalism. It's worked pretty well for us so far.

Seller offers to send another product at no charge.
That's called above and beyond.
Actually that's not Capitalism at all.....

Capitalism is about making profits in the private sector and some might define it as the exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few.

What we are talking about here is consumer law and consumers rights where we have expressions like "Of non merchandisable quality" and "Not fit for purpose" and "Misleading or false advertising" to prevent people from taking advantage of others by selling them products which do not do what they say on the tin or are misrepresented by the seller to the buyer when he purchases a product.

Not that this necessarily applies to the ligatures we are talking about on here as in this case we are talking about part of a product that could do with improvement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
That's called capitalism. It's worked pretty well for us so far.
PS Capitalism is a seriously flawed concept and has NOT worked well to date.....

......but lets leave that economic and political discussion for another day and another thread
 

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I'm happy with the TW HR lig. It's similar to a standard Otto link lig. Both need good technique to adjust without moving the reed. So do many ligs. That's life.

I have both Soprano and Tenor TW mouthpieces. Adjusting any Soprano mouthpiece without moving the reed requires the delicate hands of an expert jeweller! I can't do it with any lig.
 

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Buyer buys product.
Buyer doesn't like product.
Buyer has choice not to purchase product again.
That's called capitalism. It's worked pretty well for us so far.

Seller offers to send another product at no charge.
That's called above and beyond.
Lets try that again in this exact context: Seller offers mouthpiece ONLY with his award wining lig. Can't buy it without it. Buyer receives both and can't abide by the ligature as it comes off with the slightest movement of the mouthpiece (also affirmed by many on this thread and Steve Neff in his review). Seller acknowledges less than ideal design and is going to replace said "less than optimum" lig. Buyer requests replacement. Seller offers USED cheap ligature as a replacement. You call that above and beyond? Yes it's beyond belief that anyone would think that it's afair replacement.

Do you honestly think that when a group of people have a legitimate complaint that the maker's answer should be to fob them off with some cheap used stuff lying around in a drawer? That's what was offered. I do not accept that as fair or adequate. Is this really that difficult to understand?

I'm happy for those players who are satisfied and don't perceive the need to adjust their mouthpiece or can gingerly do it when the pressure is on in performance. I find it a fault, others agree. It seems that Theo agrees or there would be no redesign project. There only remains the question of whether Theo values former customers enough to keep them as potential buyers. There are other people besides those commenting who are watching and waiting to see how Theo responds.
 

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Lets try that again in this exact context: Seller offers mouthpiece ONLY with his award wining lig. Can't buy it without it. Buyer receives both and can't abide by the ligature as it comes off with the slightest movement of the mouthpiece (also affirmed by many on this thread and Steve Neff in his review). Seller acknowledges less than ideal design and is going to replace said "less than optimum" lig. Buyer requests replacement. Seller offers USED cheap ligature as a replacement. You call that above and beyond? Yes it's beyond belief that anyone would think that it's afair replacement.

Do you honestly think that when a group of people have a legitimate complaint that the maker's answer should be to fob them off with some cheap used stuff lying around in a drawer? That's what was offered. I do not accept that as fair or adequate. Is this really that difficult to understand?

I'm happy for those players who are satisfied and don't perceive the need to adjust their mouthpiece or can gingerly do it when the pressure is on in performance. I find it a fault, others agree. It seems that Theo agrees or there would be no redesign project. There only remains the question of whether Theo values former customers enough to keep them as potential buyers. There are other people besides those commenting who are watching and waiting to see how Theo responds.
So if I want to buy a car but it only comes with leather seats, that's what it comes with. I have the option to buy the car or not if I don't want leather seats. I could try to customize it and ask for cloth. (Did you email Theo and ask him to buy it without the ligature?)
I'm pretty sure you bought a mouthpiece from Theo Wanne Mouthpieces, not Theo Wanne Ligatures.
And a "group" of people? This group must be a silent majority. Above and beyond? Yes, the fact that he answered you on a forum without you contacting directly and tried to offer you anything is good business. If you don't like the product, give your review, that's fair. But for goodness sakes, quit whining about a ligature.
Theo never agreed that there was a flaw, he's just making one better. He didn't say the Durga was flawed but he made a 2, 3, and 4. Apple didn't say the iPhone was flawed, but they've made over a dozen different ones.

Hey Yamaha, the G# sticks on my 82Z, send me a new G#!
 

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I'm glad to hear that you've recognized the lig supplied to me and others was faulty. In the light of that it seems that a "recall" is in order so that we can be supplied with a new lig that works. Your mouthpieces are not cheap, and your reputation (in this case) is at stake. I've commented that I will not purchase another mouthpiece from you since I felt cheated in paying for what appears to be an expensive ligature that doesn't do it's basic job of holding the reed if in any way touched/moved (which we all need to do!).

I'm sure that I'd be joined by others who feel let down and would consider your reputation in tact if amends were made via a free replacement.

Your willingness to front up and acknowledge the problem speaks well. Your willingness to do right by us would be an outstanding gesture and greatly appreciated.
I have a bunch of ligatures that can move if I grab the mouthpiece around the ligature. Yes, the enlightened ligature can move but I just use cork grease and move the mouthpiece by grabbing it by the shank of the mouthpiece so I am not touching the ligature at all. I don't really find it that big a deal. The enlightened ligature is the ligature I use most on soprano and alto sax just because I like the way it responds and how "lively" the response is for me on those horns. I would in no way call this ligature defective or faulty, it's just the nature of the ligature. I have some that are solid as a rock when tightened down and some that aren't. Like I said, I have a ton that move:

-A bunch of Oleg ligatures
-my Francois Louis Ligatures
-the new JLV ligature I just reviewed
-the Silverstein Ligatures
-Rovner ligatures
-Marc Jean ligatures
-Theo Wanne Enlightened ligature like your talking about

I could go on and name even more if I go through all my ligatures. The fact is that I don't like my ligature clamped down to death so it kills the freedom of the reed so any ligature I use has a chance of moving in my case. Even a pretty solid Vandoren Optimum ligature moves around on me at times. The only ligatures that don't move seem to be pretty simple metal 2 screw ligatures when they are tightened down a good amount. On tenor I like the Selmer 404 ligature and that is a good example of a ligature that doesn't move. For hard rubber tenor mouthpieces I have a generic metal ligature that fits hard rubber tenor mouthpieces. The BSS ligature also is a 2 screw design and doesn't seem to move so far for me.

These are the pros and cons of using these ligatures. To allow the freedom for the reed to respond in a certain way these makers have had to limit the touch points that are touching the mouthpiece. One of my favorite hard rubber tenor mouthpiece ligatures is an old Francois Louis Ultimate ligature but there is no way I can grab the mouthpiece around the ligature and move it without that ligature moving. I still use it a ton though because the positives of using that ligature far outweigh that one negative and if I never grab the mouthpiece around the ligature it is never an issue. I played a Lamberson J7 with that FL ligature on like 100+ gigs at one point and never remember having one issue with it moving.......... Steve
 
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