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Hi All

I currently use a Theo Wanne Gai 2 Metal mouthpiece but yesterday decided to get out the Hard Rubber equivalent which I haven't used in a while.

Personally I prefer to use the metal version pure and simply because it has a built in ligature which is useable and feels more comfortable in my mouth whilst the HR version has that dreadful metal ring ligature that never keeps the reed in place when you try and tighten it so its always a real hassle putting a reed on and keeping it in the right place.

The HR seems to create a better sound when playing some songs whilst the metal one seems to be able to generate more power and has a punchier aspect to it but that just may be because I havent used the HR one in a while but the biggest difference imo is that the HR seems to handle saliva build up inside the chamber better than the metal one with the latter always generating that saliva moving around the mouthpiece swirling noise.

Anyway this is not a post about HR v Metal but an enquiry as to what people think about the ligature approach by Theo Wanne?

I cant understand why they have a built in one for the metal and a very unpractical more or less unuseable one for the HR mouthpiece.

In fact I use a Rovner on the HR as it seems to hold a reed much better and tbh am thinking of doing the same for the metal one too as even that built in one isnt ideal.

Just be interested to hear everyone elses thoughts on this aspect of ligatures for Theo Wanne mouthpieces and whether anyone else has done similar or tried to substitute the original ones with alternatives

Although I am no expert on sax or on mouthpieces and/or ligatures I cant help but feel that the ligature approach on Theo Wanne mouthpieces are more for show and a gimmick rather than some kind of superior design for ligatures. and superior and/or optimal performance
I'm a big proponent of being able to easily switch the position of my lig either closer or further from the pointy end of the mouthpiece. The Theo Wanne metal ligs do NOT allow doing that without a teeny leetly tool (definitely not doable on the bandstand!). If my reed is too hard, I'll "choke up" with my lig, that is, move the ligature closer to the tip of the mouthpiece. Likewise, I can get a little bit more of a resistant feeling on a too-soft reed if I move the lig further away from the tip.
I'm not talking about a lot of distance between one end of my little ligature range and the other -- probably not more than 3/16" on tenor, but for me I find it is another thing that helps me.
 
So I guess the answer is to get TW to give us all a discount and sell the mouthpieces for less and without a ligature and/or to include a Rovner ;-)
Since you already have the mpcs and seem to like them, the answer is really very simple. Just get a lig for each mpc that fits well (that's the important thing) and isn't too 'fiddly'. A simple 2-screw lig or any number of different ligs are on the market that will fit those mpcs.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Since you already have the mpcs and seem to like them, the answer is really very simple. Just get a lig for each mpc that fits well (that's the important thing) and isn't too 'fiddly'. A simple 2-screw lig or any number of different ligs are on the market that will fit those mpcs.
Dont have a problem with the mouthpieces just the ligatures and use a Rovner with the HR Gaia.

As for the metal version I use the in built one but as previously mentioned by someone else its a pain having to unscrew the lig to move it forward or backwards.

Another issue is that the metal will not hold some reeds very well if they have unusual curvature in their body.

Anyway great mouthpieces just a shame about the ligatures and you have to worry about a company that seems to be slow to respond to customer comments.

I have the Gaia 2's and purchased them after they were launched but know they have a 3 version already and imagine a 4 is coming out at some stage and a 5 unless it gets completely replaced.

What the differences are physically and in performance I dont know but you would have thought that they would have done something about the ligatures or made an attempt to modify and improve them as the number of people who find them less than satisfactory cannot be insignificant compared to how many they sell.

Just think its rather disappointing for any company to take a stance along the lines of "This is the product - take it or leave it as is" regardless of whether 1 or 100 customers find it cumbersome or inconvenient especially when their products were in the upper quartile price wise
 
Dont have a problem with the mouthpieces just the ligatures and use a Rovner with the HR Gaia.
I think you may have misread my post. I said I assumed you liked both mpcs, so the only issue is the ligature. If the Rovner fits fine on the HR mpc, then that issue is solved.

Now all you have to do is remove the lig you don't like from the metal mpc and get one that fits well. There are plenty of 'standard' ligs out there that will fit that metal mpc.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
I think you may have misread my post. I said I assumed you liked both mpcs, so the only issue is the ligature. If the Rovner fits fine on the HR mpc, then that issue is solved.

Now all you have to do is remove the lig you don't like from the metal mpc and get one that fits well. There are plenty of 'standard' ligs out there that will fit that metal mpc.
No I understood...

Just trying to make the point that if you have a reputation for making and actually do make great mouthpieces its a shame that a manufacturer cant put that little bit of effort into making the ligatures better as they obviously have great scope for improvement

Like the poster who said he sells ligatures made from rubber bands for $1000 each but they come with free $500 mouthpieces (ROTFL)

Its quite a succinct way of putting it imho you buy a super expensive rubbish ligature but get a decent mouthpiece with it
 
Just trying to make the point that if you have a reputation for making and actually do make great mouthpieces its a shame that a manufacturer cant put that little bit of effort into making the ligatures better as they obviously have great scope for improvement

Like the poster who said he sells ligatures made from rubber bands for $1000 each but they come with free $500 mouthpieces (ROTFL)

Its quite a succinct way of putting it imho you buy a super expensive rubbish ligature but get a decent mouthpiece with it
Got it. I understand your frustration and it's likely that the cost of that ligature is added to the cost of the mpc. However, you have the mpc, you like it, yet you dislike the ligature. So luckily, it's not a problem to replace the ligature with one that is less 'fiddly' and will fit fine.

There probably are plenty of players who do like the Wanne ligs, and in any case they are quality mpcs. So there's not much to be gained by complaining about it.

This is probably one reason a lot of the best mpcs are sold without ligatures. Then you have the option of choosing the lig you like. I actually thought Ron Cuelho (RIP) handled this in the best way with his hard rubber RPC mpcs. He'd include an inexpensive metal 2-screw lig that worked perfectly and added little or nothing to the price of the mpc. Anyone who wanted some other lig, for whatever reason, could go out a buy one.
 
I used to sell ligs but found that no matter what you sell or supply someone will always be unhappy. I decided to focus on the mouthpiece. Picking a lig for someone is like deciding what reeds they should use....or horn for that matter.

inlike Theo’s ligs too but I can understand that it might be difficult to manage the enlightened lig in dark gig situations where you have to move quickly. Id say the same with the FL ligs. In general, however, I prefer a lig that provides top down pressure. Infeel its ideal for pieces with flat tables and affords minimal stress to the mouthpiece body.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
I do like the mouthpieces - just disappointed in the ligs thats all

Have changed the HR one for a Rovner and use the metal one 'as is' but reckon will remove that too in time and use another Rovner because sometimes it just feels a bit too tight when I am unscrewing it and I dont like the way you have to unscrew and screw it up from both sides as I am sure it would be easy to buckle the arms as you seem to have to alternate with half screws from one side to the other.

Just poorly designed IMO.

I find the Rovners are easy to tighten and provide even pressure over the reed holding it firmly in place but as mentioned previously am not good enough to notice any discernible difference between mouthpieces or ligatures sound wise so its about ease of use and practicalities for me

The mouthpieces themselves I would score 10/10 (probably because I dont know any better and havent much to compare them with) but the hard rubber ligature I give 1/10 and the metal one 4/10

Glad some people like them and yes 100% of people will never be totally happy but would guess that a large proportion of people find them cumbersome and inconvenient ligature wise

Just cant believe that TW havent come up with something better because I am certainly put off from buying their mouthpieces in future as and when that time arises.

Then again next time I will be more experienced and will take some ligatures with me when testing out future mouthpieces and most likely opt for mouthpieces that are ligature free.
 
Have changed the HR one for a Rovner and use the metal one 'as is' but reckon will remove that too in time and use another Rovner because sometimes it just feels a bit too tight when I am unscrewing it and I dont like the way you have to unscrew and screw it up from both sides as I am sure it would be easy to buckle the arms as you seem to have to alternate with half screws from one side to the other.
A little confused by that, but if you want a lig that tightens evenly from both sides, the Vandoren M|O, Optimum and leather ligs all have it. If you don't like the leather one, you can take the hardware out and put in in a Rovner. Over the pond there's a GF brand lig that has the same type of 'mechanism.'
 
It would be nice if TW offered his new HR mouthpieces without his "enlightened" lig. I was horribly disappointed by all the trappings and self promotion when it was painfully obvious that it was a very poorly designed lig that wouldn't allow the slightest adjustment without everything going askew. How unsusal is it to have to go out and play a gig without warming up your instrument for 10 minutes? Yea, it's usually the way it happens. So you've pushed on and then need to back off the nouthpiece when it all warms up to get back to being in tune. That's where it all goes sideways with TW's "enlightened" lig. "Hey everybody stop the music, my expensive hyped lig just slipped and I need to spend a few minutes putting it back together! " The only thing that felt (en) lightened was my wallet. I felt offended by it after paying new price and then given a lig that was crap when almost any cheap Chinese lig is better. I have not purchased a new TW since, and never will. Are you listening TW???
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
A little confused by that, but if you want a lig that tightens evenly from both sides, the Vandoren M|O, Optimum and leather ligs all have it. If you don't like the leather one, you can take the hardware out and put in in a Rovner. Over the pond there's a GF brand lig that has the same type of 'mechanism.'
I was referring to the metal arms that fix the lig to the mouthpiece.

When tightening and loosening the arms on either side I am scared of bending the arms as it may cause greater problems down the line. Hence the reason why I am thinking of replacing it completely

Have moved it forward once but now its back to the original middle position and I really do not feel very confident that it could sustain too many movements without bending the side arms as you really have to screw them up alternately from one side to the other imo using care in case you tighten up too much on one side over the other.

The plate itself at the top fits fine on my Legere synthetic reed but its not that good a fit on some others depending on how much curve the red body has and guess I have just been too lazy to dump it and use an alternative but will have to eventually I am sure

Just a shame a company doesn't seem to be too bothered about something that needs addressing (imho) and reflects poorly as there is a lot of competition out there and would have thought listening to customers was of paramount importance in specialist niche companies such as this

"Great mouthpieces, shame about the ligs though"
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
FWIW

I wrote to Theo Wanne expressing my concerns about the ligs on HR and Metal Gaia 2's and got this response about the HR lig but nothing on the metal lig

Guess we will have to wait and see what develops but at least they responded so credit them for that and at least they are aware of concerns I and obviously many others also have

Thanks for your message and for letting us know about your concerns.

I've forwarded the message on to Theo for review, as he is always looking for ways to improve.

I can tell you, we're in the middle of redesigning the HR ligature to have some more contact with the mouthpiece and avoid the issue you mentioned. It will likely take a number of months before it is ready, however.
 
I was referring to the metal arms that fix the lig to the mouthpiece.

When tightening and loosening the arms on either side I am scared of bending the arms as it may cause greater problems down the line. Hence the reason why I am thinking of replacing it completely

Have moved it forward once but now its back to the original middle position and I really do not feel very confident that it could sustain too many movements without bending the side arms as you really have to screw them up alternately from one side to the other imo using care in case you tighten up too much on one side over the other.

The plate itself at the top fits fine on my Legere synthetic reed but its not that good a fit on some others depending on how much curve the red body has and guess I have just been too lazy to dump it and use an alternative but will have to eventually I am sure

Just a shame a company doesn't seem to be too bothered about something that needs addressing (imho) and reflects poorly as there is a lot of competition out there and would have thought listening to customers was of paramount importance in specialist niche companies such as this

"Great mouthpieces, shame about the ligs though"
I've removed mine and changed the position many times, I doubt it will bend much if at all. The biggest concern I had was losing the hex screws. I did buy some blue locktite as recommended to keep them secure while playing. They come with a bit on them but I fiddled with my lig quite a bit so they needed more to secure them. I wouldn't worry about the lig bending.
 
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