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Theo Wanne Mouthpieces and their ligatures

21K views 114 replies 34 participants last post by  Spooner 
#1 ·
Hi All

I currently use a Theo Wanne Gai 2 Metal mouthpiece but yesterday decided to get out the Hard Rubber equivalent which I haven't used in a while.

Personally I prefer to use the metal version pure and simply because it has a built in ligature which is useable and feels more comfortable in my mouth whilst the HR version has that dreadful metal ring ligature that never keeps the reed in place when you try and tighten it so its always a real hassle putting a reed on and keeping it in the right place.

The HR seems to create a better sound when playing some songs whilst the metal one seems to be able to generate more power and has a punchier aspect to it but that just may be because I havent used the HR one in a while but the biggest difference imo is that the HR seems to handle saliva build up inside the chamber better than the metal one with the latter always generating that saliva moving around the mouthpiece swirling noise.

Anyway this is not a post about HR v Metal but an enquiry as to what people think about the ligature approach by Theo Wanne?

I cant understand why they have a built in one for the metal and a very unpractical more or less unuseable one for the HR mouthpiece.

In fact I use a Rovner on the HR as it seems to hold a reed much better and tbh am thinking of doing the same for the metal one too as even that built in one isnt ideal.

Just be interested to hear everyone elses thoughts on this aspect of ligatures for Theo Wanne mouthpieces and whether anyone else has done similar or tried to substitute the original ones with alternatives

Although I am no expert on sax or on mouthpieces and/or ligatures I cant help but feel that the ligature approach on Theo Wanne mouthpieces are more for show and a gimmick rather than some kind of superior design for ligatures. and superior and/or optimal performance
 
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Discussion starter · #8 ·
Well have to be honest and say that I really like both mouthpieces but its just a tremendous shame about the ligature(s) problems

Its obviously something that they must be aware of so it begs the question as to why they haven't done anything about it.

I recall someone from TW who works for him/them used to post on here.....any chance of an explanation as to what plans there are to change things if any such plans exist at all?
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
So I guess the answer is to get TW to give us all a discount and sell the mouthpieces for less and without a ligature and/or to include a Rovner ;-)
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Since you already have the mpcs and seem to like them, the answer is really very simple. Just get a lig for each mpc that fits well (that's the important thing) and isn't too 'fiddly'. A simple 2-screw lig or any number of different ligs are on the market that will fit those mpcs.
Dont have a problem with the mouthpieces just the ligatures and use a Rovner with the HR Gaia.

As for the metal version I use the in built one but as previously mentioned by someone else its a pain having to unscrew the lig to move it forward or backwards.

Another issue is that the metal will not hold some reeds very well if they have unusual curvature in their body.

Anyway great mouthpieces just a shame about the ligatures and you have to worry about a company that seems to be slow to respond to customer comments.

I have the Gaia 2's and purchased them after they were launched but know they have a 3 version already and imagine a 4 is coming out at some stage and a 5 unless it gets completely replaced.

What the differences are physically and in performance I dont know but you would have thought that they would have done something about the ligatures or made an attempt to modify and improve them as the number of people who find them less than satisfactory cannot be insignificant compared to how many they sell.

Just think its rather disappointing for any company to take a stance along the lines of "This is the product - take it or leave it as is" regardless of whether 1 or 100 customers find it cumbersome or inconvenient especially when their products were in the upper quartile price wise
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
I think you may have misread my post. I said I assumed you liked both mpcs, so the only issue is the ligature. If the Rovner fits fine on the HR mpc, then that issue is solved.

Now all you have to do is remove the lig you don't like from the metal mpc and get one that fits well. There are plenty of 'standard' ligs out there that will fit that metal mpc.
No I understood...

Just trying to make the point that if you have a reputation for making and actually do make great mouthpieces its a shame that a manufacturer cant put that little bit of effort into making the ligatures better as they obviously have great scope for improvement

Like the poster who said he sells ligatures made from rubber bands for $1000 each but they come with free $500 mouthpieces (ROTFL)

Its quite a succinct way of putting it imho you buy a super expensive rubbish ligature but get a decent mouthpiece with it
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
I do like the mouthpieces - just disappointed in the ligs thats all

Have changed the HR one for a Rovner and use the metal one 'as is' but reckon will remove that too in time and use another Rovner because sometimes it just feels a bit too tight when I am unscrewing it and I dont like the way you have to unscrew and screw it up from both sides as I am sure it would be easy to buckle the arms as you seem to have to alternate with half screws from one side to the other.

Just poorly designed IMO.

I find the Rovners are easy to tighten and provide even pressure over the reed holding it firmly in place but as mentioned previously am not good enough to notice any discernible difference between mouthpieces or ligatures sound wise so its about ease of use and practicalities for me

The mouthpieces themselves I would score 10/10 (probably because I dont know any better and havent much to compare them with) but the hard rubber ligature I give 1/10 and the metal one 4/10

Glad some people like them and yes 100% of people will never be totally happy but would guess that a large proportion of people find them cumbersome and inconvenient ligature wise

Just cant believe that TW havent come up with something better because I am certainly put off from buying their mouthpieces in future as and when that time arises.

Then again next time I will be more experienced and will take some ligatures with me when testing out future mouthpieces and most likely opt for mouthpieces that are ligature free.
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
A little confused by that, but if you want a lig that tightens evenly from both sides, the Vandoren M|O, Optimum and leather ligs all have it. If you don't like the leather one, you can take the hardware out and put in in a Rovner. Over the pond there's a GF brand lig that has the same type of 'mechanism.'
I was referring to the metal arms that fix the lig to the mouthpiece.

When tightening and loosening the arms on either side I am scared of bending the arms as it may cause greater problems down the line. Hence the reason why I am thinking of replacing it completely

Have moved it forward once but now its back to the original middle position and I really do not feel very confident that it could sustain too many movements without bending the side arms as you really have to screw them up alternately from one side to the other imo using care in case you tighten up too much on one side over the other.

The plate itself at the top fits fine on my Legere synthetic reed but its not that good a fit on some others depending on how much curve the red body has and guess I have just been too lazy to dump it and use an alternative but will have to eventually I am sure

Just a shame a company doesn't seem to be too bothered about something that needs addressing (imho) and reflects poorly as there is a lot of competition out there and would have thought listening to customers was of paramount importance in specialist niche companies such as this

"Great mouthpieces, shame about the ligs though"
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
FWIW

I wrote to Theo Wanne expressing my concerns about the ligs on HR and Metal Gaia 2's and got this response about the HR lig but nothing on the metal lig

Guess we will have to wait and see what develops but at least they responded so credit them for that and at least they are aware of concerns I and obviously many others also have

Thanks for your message and for letting us know about your concerns.

I've forwarded the message on to Theo for review, as he is always looking for ways to improve.

I can tell you, we're in the middle of redesigning the HR ligature to have some more contact with the mouthpiece and avoid the issue you mentioned. It will likely take a number of months before it is ready, however.
 
Discussion starter · #41 ·
I've removed mine and changed the position many times, I doubt it will bend much if at all. The biggest concern I had was losing the hex screws. I did buy some blue locktite as recommended to keep them secure while playing. They come with a bit on them but I fiddled with my lig quite a bit so they needed more to secure them. I wouldn't worry about the lig bending.
"......Blue Loctite as recommended........ "

Where and who suggested/recommended this?
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
I use it on the ligature hex screws as well, they come with a tiny bit on them. It wore off as I fiddled with mine so I added a tiny bit more to keep them in place. Red loctite is for a permanent lock on the threads, blue is to just keep it from vibrating loose.

View attachment 8019
My insert is slightly different but it definitely says Loctite on mine
Yellow Material property Paper Paper product Publication
 
Discussion starter · #50 ·
FWIW

I wrote to Theo Wanne expressing my concerns about the ligs on HR and Metal Gaia 2's and got this response about the HR lig but nothing on the metal lig

Guess we will have to wait and see what develops but at least they responded so credit them for that and at least they are aware of concerns I and obviously many others also have

Thanks for your message and for letting us know about your concerns.

I've forwarded the message on to Theo for review, as he is always looking for ways to improve.

I can tell you, we're in the middle of redesigning the HR ligature to have some more contact with the mouthpiece and avoid the issue you mentioned. It will likely take a number of months before it is ready, however.
And a further follow up response from Theo Wanne

Thank you for taking the time to write and share your experience.

Indeed we have had many share the experience of the ligature moving to much with the HR ligature. We are working on a design for the future that will move around less. I do realize that is an issue. In the beginning I designed it primarily for the best possible sound, but have come to find that to have move less is of great importance too.

The good new with that size body, many ligatures on the market should work on it. Our newest model hard rubber GAIA 3 is a smaller body size, and we do have a more standard screw type ligature for it as it is not a standard size like the GAIA 2.

Regarding the tenor, I actually have not gotten the feedback you gave on that one before. For the most part people have liked that they don't have to 'find' their favorite ligature again, once it is positioned in the right spot. I have not heard of the issue with the pressure plate shape either, but I will investigate more.

Thank you so much for helping improve our products with your feedback, it is appreciated.
 
Discussion starter · #52 ·
That only protects the mouthpiece when no reed is on it, presumably while it's in your case. It's actually kind of cool because it can't slip off while your horn is in transit.
I mean an actual mouthpiece cap that I can slip on during a break while my sax is hanging out on the bandstand. It could help protect the mouthpiece if the sax was to take a fall, gasp. But more likely, protect the reed from others when they pass by. I've had a guy's jacket snag on the reed as they pass my horn a couple times over the years. The jacket always wins.
Oops! Sorry My Bad........
 
Discussion starter · #69 ·
Are you the same Charlie J who posted:
"Although I am no expert on sax or on mouthpieces and/or ligatures I cant help but feel that the ligature approach on Theo Wanne mouthpieces are more for show and a gimmick rather than some kind of superior design for ligatures. and superior and/or optimal performance."

Sorry Charlie. As far as I'm concerned the discussion just got to the meat of the problem, and you're also a person who isn't satisfied and said it in a very forceful way. It's crunch time for Theo to do what's right and stand behind his product and claims or let us know he's grateful for our $$ and doesn't want to otherwise know us.

In my "day job" I also produce products. When/if they fail to please I offer a refund or replacement to keep my customers happy. That's standard business practice. What's being asked for is absolutely normal for anyone providing a product.

The offer of a cheap used ligature as a replacement somehow just doesn't make up for an expensive ligature that didn't work for me, for you, and a whole lot of other people.
I think you will find that Charlie J was quoting part of my original opening post so you are mistakenly attributing my comment to him

Didn't realize I was going to be opening up such a can of worms when starting this thread

My main point was that the HR ligature was highly impractical to the point of being unusable as every time you adjust it the reed gets knocked out of place

The metal version lig (which comes attached to the mouthpiece) is not ideal but at least its useable

Perhaps the moral of the story is that you should try everything out first and if not happy do not get it

I purchased my first Gaia 2 (HR) on the advice of my teacher who also happens to endorse TW mouthpieces and I purchased it from a shop without trying or testing it out first.

I was under the impression you could get a mouthpiece and keep it for two weeks before deciding to buy it or have it replaced (as long as you hadnt damaged it).

Anyway I bought it and then quickly discovered I couldnt use the HR mouthpiece ligature so replaced it with an alternate one made by others

The metal version I purchased directly from my teacher at a discounted price and tbh preferred the feel of it in my mouth to the HR version and have stuck with that since.

Both are 7* size and previous to that I had been using a 5 Yanigasawa mouthpiece which came with my first horn for about 16 months so they were my first upgrade

Since then I have used a Rovner on the HR (only use it sporadically) and have the metal one for every day use but as I am currently in need of a new mouthpiece pad for that have been using the HR for the last week or so.

Personally I think a fair assessment of the HR ligature would be to describe it as poorly designed in the sense that it makes it very difficult to use it in a practical sense which is disappointing because the mouthpieces are excellent products (according to my limited sax experience and knowledge)

I guess I would liken it to buying a Bentley only to find that despite leather seats and walnut trim they replaced the steering wheel with a walnut wooden stick - it would just be inferior to the rest of the cars fine engineering and as such detract from what would otherwise be a luxury vehicle as it would make the car extremely difficult to steer. It would still work but you would have great difficulty controlling the direction in which the car moved

Whilst the ligature seems to be made of quality materials and to a high standard it just doesnt do the basic function of holding the reed in place so that whenever you try and adjust the mouthpiece you knock the red out of place.

Perhaps a more fitting description then would be to say that the HR mouthpiece ligature is not 'ideally' fit for purpose but at least the problem has been acknowledged and is being addressed

Anyway I am rambling now and the point of the post is to point out its my quote and not Charlie J's
 
Discussion starter · #70 ·
PS Where can I find Theo Wanne Tenor HARD Mouthpiece pads/patches in The UK (SEE OTHER THREAD) - nobody seems to have them in stock and I have had 2 packs on order since 13 November and have no clue if and when I will ever get them (ordered from a UK firm who advertises them and not from TW directly).
 
Discussion starter · #73 ·
Anyway I am rambling now and the point of the post is to point out its my quote and not Charlie J's

Thank you hdemet for getting me off that hook!
I thought we were talking about ligatures?

....... but if you want to expand the discussion to neck strap hooks..........

Would that be a metal one or a plastic one ;-)
 
Discussion starter · #75 ·
Buyer buys product.
Buyer doesn't like product.
Buyer has choice not to purchase product again.
That's called capitalism. It's worked pretty well for us so far.

Seller offers to send another product at no charge.
That's called above and beyond.
Actually that's not Capitalism at all.....

Capitalism is about making profits in the private sector and some might define it as the exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few.

What we are talking about here is consumer law and consumers rights where we have expressions like "Of non merchandisable quality" and "Not fit for purpose" and "Misleading or false advertising" to prevent people from taking advantage of others by selling them products which do not do what they say on the tin or are misrepresented by the seller to the buyer when he purchases a product.

Not that this necessarily applies to the ligatures we are talking about on here as in this case we are talking about part of a product that could do with improvement.
 
Discussion starter · #76 ·
That's called capitalism. It's worked pretty well for us so far.
PS Capitalism is a seriously flawed concept and has NOT worked well to date.....

......but lets leave that economic and political discussion for another day and another thread
 
Discussion starter · #92 ·
Seems to me that the 'obvious' solution is for Theo Wanne to sell mouthpieces and ligatures separately

I can understand any manufacturer wanting to also make the accessory to go with it because you could have a view "I make the best mouthpiece in the whole world" but dont want a substandard ligature made by someone else to detract from it but obviously you are nevr going to make everyone happy.

Now whether Theo Wanne make the ligature themselves or sub contract it out I havent a clue but something is amiss as I and others have experienced problems.

However I cant see any problem whatsoever if he sold mouthpieces and ligatures independently from each other and that would then be a compromise acceptable to all and especially if you could do it on a sale and return basis

It may be he loses 10% or 90% of the ligature sales as a consequence but it has to be better than losing even 5% of all customers as a whole and having your reputation as a mouthpiece maker tarnished.

Never realized this would provoke such strong emotion and sentiment when opening up the thread.
 
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