[paulwl]

The really difficult things in instrumental practice are the things out of reach of our rational mind - where we learn only by dedicated, repeated failure. Attempts at problem solving end only in shortcuts.

We must learn to be dumb and totally trust the process of repetition, even when it gives no results, and beyond that. We must continue to trust the process even when the rational mind becomes frustrated, angry, and hopeless. Because that frustration, anger, and hopelessness will spread, first to practice, then to playing, then to all of music.

 

[paulwl]

This task - perhaps I should say, tasks of this nature - have nothing to do with why we make music, btw. These tasks are our responsibility to music. Inspiration won't touch them and insight won't touch them. There is no joy here beyond the faith and steadfastness we bring, if we have that capability.

 

[1saxman]

I guess this is deep?

 

[lesacks]

I guess this is deep?

My test of deep thoughts is; do I still stand by it when I sober-up?

 

[Pete Thomas]

We must learn to be dumb and totally trust the process of repetition, even when it gives no results, and beyond that.

Beginners initially get a real buzz from the first few days (or maybe weeks) but it gradually becomes more and more like you describe - no apparent resluts

I've noticed the the more experienced you are the harder it becomes to recognise improvement because you become more able to be critical, and so any improvements hide behind you frustration with the deficencies you didn't notice before. Those are usually tonal or other difficult to evaluate things, obviously you can always tell if you can play a scale a bit faster.

If you becvome serious about playing (e.g. as a career) you have to adopt this kind of mental approach, like an athlete training, that is almost mindless and just putting the hours in. The main thing that drives is the desire to be your best (or the best!)

I gave up practising years ago and was at a certain level I was sort of OK with. A bit complacent I know, but generally playing fairly regularly kept me at that level.

But recently having had to stop playing more or less for six months (thank you COVID) thongs have changed.

Picking the horn up the other day, I tried some practice, and like a beginner again I felt the improvement was happening at first, then stopped as I hit that certain level where it seemed I'd improved as much as I was going to.

 

[Mope]

Years ago in my fifties I began teaching myself saxophone but found I was better at collecting saxophones than playing them and frustrated with my slow progress I quit playing feeling that mediocrity was beyond my reach in this lifetime. I was surprised when I started playing again at what my brain forgot but my fingers remembered. They even remembered the mistakes I practiced years ago. Paulwl warned about practicing mistakes years ago.

No more gigs as a bass player so I am back to sax and now hope to just enjoy the ride with whatever progress I make. Seems most musicians no matter how good are never satisfied with where they are with their playing.

 

[paulwl]

Beginners initially get a real buzz from the first few days (or maybe weeks) but it gradually becomes more and more like you describe - no apparent resluts

I've noticed the the more experienced you are the harder it becomes to recognise improvement because you become more able to be critical, and so any improvements hide behind you frustration with the deficencies you didn't notice before. Those are usually tonal or other difficult to evaluate things, obviously you can always tell if you can play a scale a bit faster.

If you becvome serious about playing (e.g. as a career) you have to adopt this kind of mental approach, like an athlete training, that is almost mindless and just putting the hours in. The main thing that drives is the desire to be your best (or the best!)

I gave up practising years ago and was at a certain level I was sort of OK with. A bit complacent I know, but generally playing fairly regularly kept me at that level.

But recently having had to stop playing more or less for six months (thank you COVID) thongs have changed.

Picking the horn up the other day, I tried some practice, and like a beginner again I felt the improvement was happening at first, then stopped as I hit that certain level where it seemed I'd improved as much as I was going to.

Thank you very kindly Pete. We can always count on you for a fresh perspective...especially we in the US where it so often seems everyone's on the same page.

I have never been capable of mindlessness in music. I don't think it's a skill that can be learned for anything meaningful without making it meaningless. There is certainly no pedagogy for it. I suppose dumb repetition is the answer here, too, but it makes me sick.

It also makes me sick (beyond just sad) that so many just make room for frustration and the imposter syndrome* as normal and to be expected. I don't think people understand that it is not all coming from ourselves! It is taught...and mostly tacitly taught. It's hard to see how it could be any different, unless it creates tensions you just can't resolve.

I will say this Pete...if you enjoyed the stature in the US that you do in the UK, and it had gotten out that you stopped practicing, your reputation would have suffered entirely independent of your playing. Over here, musicians don't get to formulate their own work ethic, except perhaps in their own minds. It's certainly not to be shared.

 

[paulwl]

I guess this is deep?

Only if you're not.

 

[paulwl]

Is anyone familiar with the phenomenon called "mindless concentration"? It might be just what I have always failed to do. There is no patience when I try "dumb" activities - no quiet for the mind. They are...and this is a word that may rile up some of us graybeards...triggering.

 

[boots148]

lesacks.. LOL!!

 

[Tryptykon]

consider ..

think on these things..

 

[paulwl]

We're taught that music is meditation in performance only if it's very thorough and meticulous, "western" if you will, in practice...only if everything's been fully hammered into place.

In other words, we're taught that there are no Buddhists in the shed. Yes, you chop wood and carry water after enlightenment as you did before...but chopping wood and carrying water ain't enough for what we do. We have to roll the rock uphill and watch it roll down every day.

 

[adamk]

Patience is directly linked to failure?

 

[paulwl]

It's a must if you have to fail repeatedly...as you do with neuro-motor skills where there's no problem solving to be done.

 

[Morph1590]

I try not to be too "results" focussed and practice without the expectation of short term improvement. I practice because I enjoy it, and as a saxophonist and musician practicing is just what I do! I do trust that consistency will yield improvements in my playing and musicianship, but I try and see practicing itself as the goal, and any improvement in my playing is just a happy consequence. This stops me being too frustrated with my slow progress!

 

[AddictedToSax]

It's a must if you have to fail repeatedly...as you do with neuro-motor skills where there's no problem solving to be done.

I'd suggest unless you're striving to be a soloist you might be better served to understand your limitations and try to live with them.

 

[paulwl]

I practice because I enjoy it, and as a saxophonist and musician practicing is just what I do!

I used to feel that playing was what I did, and I did enjoy it.

Then I came to understand that playing is not the practice I need. The practice I need is the frustrating, dumb, repetitive kind. The kind that triggers me, so I never do it.

 

[Morph1590]

I used to feel that playing was what I did, and I did enjoy it.

Then I came to understand that playing is not the practice I need. The practice I need is the frustrating, dumb, repetitive kind. The kind that triggers me, so I never do it.

For me practicing and playing are both enjoyable - but in different ways.

Certainly a part of my practice you could characterise as dumb and repetitive. I put phrases through the keys (repitivie) and I have certain technical exercises (long tonnes, overtones, register changing things) which are "dumb". But I also think you can't strip practice of all creativity and "play" from practice...playing by ear, playing music, fiddling around on the piano, improvising, playing freely. I wished for years that I could construct the perfect practice routine, like a gym workout, that I could do mindlessly everyday and that would be. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it's possible, or if it is, I'm yet to find it!

 

[Dr G]

I used to feel that playing was what I did, and I did enjoy it.

Then I came to understand that playing is not the practice I need. The practice I need is the frustrating, dumb, repetitive kind. The kind that triggers me, so I never do it.

You could start by not labeling things with such pejorative names. Call it a different name if it must have a label.

"Accepting" is so much less draining than "Tolerating".

 

[datsaxman]

G, I suspect that pejorative was intentional.