Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,985 Posts
Administrator note:

Moved to the correct sub forum for new product announcements.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2013
Joined
·
4,117 Posts
I am not a sax tech, but it sure looks awesome!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Sack of phones.

Check the price at jsengineering.net
under sax products. You have to buy a pads set, then upgrade them to self leveling.
 

·
Moderator
Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
Joined
·
28,884 Posts
Jim, I have a couple of questions.

Is then point of this to counteract any leaks that may be caused by trauma to an instrument. It occurred to me that this could be a very useful concept, but you don't actually explain in the video under what circumstances the self levelling comes into its own.

To put it another way, this is not a DIY installation so needs a competent technician to install them. The tech may well ask you what the point of self levelling is, if they have already ascertained the tone holes are dead level and the key cups are totally in line. Under those circumstances a traditional pad is all that is required, once seated it seals and does not need to self level.

However I can see the advantage of self levelling if the horn takes a knock and, for example, the bell gets knocked a bit round so the right stack keys no longer seal. In that case the self levelling would mean that the average player with no repair ability can carry on playing fine as the self levelling pads would take into account any leaks caused.

So would you say this is the prime reason why this will work well for the average player, or is there an inherent advantage otherwise, e.g. gradual inevitable misalignment of keycaps overviewed the years so might mean less general servicing?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
I am not sure the 'self-leveling' part is main property of these pads. I'd rather say their main feature is their increased longevity, due to the material used. However, their rigidity require them to be self-adjusting in order to work (or maybe just to be set up in a finite time). But that's mainly guess work from my part...
 

·
Moderator
Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
Joined
·
28,884 Posts
However, their rigidity require them to be self-adjusting in order to work (or maybe just to be set up in a finite time). But that's mainly guess work from my part...
Aha, that sort of makes sense, you mean that softer pads have a certain amount of self levelling due to the cushioning? But I was under the impression that these type of gold pads (without the self levelling) have been around for several years anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,943 Posts
This has been a long time coming. A properly installed self-leveling pad would reduce a lot of repadding and the headaches that go along with it. I don't think that a change in pad material alone is the answer, but this shows a lot of promise.

I can see some shortcomings to this: How do you keep the the ball-and-socket lubricated and prevent it from becoming fouled?
 

·
Moderator
Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
Joined
·
28,884 Posts
This has been a long time coming. A properly installed self-leveling pad would reduce a lot of repadding
I can see how it would reduce reseating, and how the material itself might reduce rep adding, but I'm not sure the self levelling feature itself would reduce repadding?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
·
38,803 Posts
It is very interesting a system (Toptone, was and still is, too).

In both cases the majority of the problems involving its diffusion will come from the resisting techs.

The JS saxophone of course would be impervious to keys and keycups bending.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Technician
Joined
·
3,408 Posts
This is an interesting development of an old theme and sounds great in theory......but, it is very misleading to assume -or presume- that it will compensate for damage or stress caused by external conditions ie, knocks, bangs, misalignment etc. The spring under the pad is a variation of Buescher's 'snap in' pad with the steel shim pressing upwards and keeping the pad level-these pads worked extremely well and were very high quality but,again they had their limitations. Another notable pad was the Conn 'Reso Ring' design, these pads were very forgiving-more so than Buescher, in fact, many German manufacturers used this type on straight toneholes well into the '70's.
Both the Buescher and Conn had one major advantage over these JS pads though.. they were/are very easy to install. I applaud Jim Schmidt for 'having a go' and trying 'new things' but as with so many Sax related things very little is really new -it's all to do with marketing and presentation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Aha, that sort of makes sense, you mean that softer pads have a certain amount of self levelling due to the cushioning? But I was under the impression that these type of gold pads (without the self levelling) have been around for several years anyway.
Yes, that was what I meant.

I didn't know that these pads (without self-levelling) were already in use. Without the self-levelling, using very rigid/solid pads seems (to me) quite hazardous since the seal is then granted only if the pad is in the perfect position, and stays that way 'forever'. The real world being what it is, I see then 2 issues:
A) setting up each pad is not easy,
B) there is a risk that a sax with that system would spend more time at the tech than at the gigs (just one pad being wrong, and the whole sax may become unplayable).

Considering that, I understand the self levelling feature as a major benefit for the techs (maybe even more for the techs than for the players actually) : less to worry about when installing the pads (maybe even a quicker install than for traditional pads ?).

That self-levelling feature may not be a new idea (as suggested by the other posts about Buescher and Conn systems), but while it may not be an absolute requirement when using leather pads, I think it is a real necessity when using rigid ones (to ensure perfect sealing by allowing some flexibility to the rigid pads). Again, that's just what comes to my mind without any experience with any of these systems...
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,960 Posts
This has been a long time coming.
This isn't a new idea at all, really. There have been other efforts over the years, and I believe there are a couple places in Europe which actually will install self-leveling pad systems.
So there are modern/contemporary examples...we don't have to go back to Buescher, etc....

The problem has been not necessarily the 'failure' of the pivoting/leveling systems themselves, but rather a significant amount of consumer resistance to having a pad system on the horn which doesn't 'feel' familiar.

I can see how it would reduce reseating, and how the material itself might reduce rep adding, but I'm not sure the self levelling feature itself would reduce repadding?
It wouldn't. The JS metal pads would still have to be changed out as often as JS metal pads would usually have to be changed out when installed conventionally, I would imagine ?

That is, if the pads themseleves are the same as the conventionally-installed ones (?)

Jim...are these the same pad specifications as the ones you sell which are conventionally installed (i.e. no pivot, just direct adhesion to the keycups) ???

...but while it may not be an absolute requirement when using leather pads, I think it is a real necessity when using rigid ones (to ensure perfect sealing by allowing some flexibility to the rigid pads). Again, that's just what comes to my mind without any experience with any of these systems...
Actually, JS does sell pads which are installed without any pivots required. They have been available for at least 7 years or so....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Jim, I have a couple of questions.

Is then point of this to counteract any leaks that may be caused by trauma to an instrument. It occurred to me that this could be a very useful concept, but you don't actually explain in the video under what circumstances the self levelling comes into its own.

To put it another way, this is not a DIY installation so needs a competent technician to install them. The tech may well ask you what the point of self levelling is, if they have already ascertained the tone holes are dead level and the key cups are totally in line. Under those circumstances a traditional pad is all that is required, once seated it seals and does not need to self level.

However I can see the advantage of self levelling if the horn takes a knock and, for example, the bell gets knocked a bit round so the right stack keys no longer seal. In that case the self levelling would mean that the average player with no repair ability can carry on playing fine as the self levelling pads would take into account any leaks caused.

So would you say this is the prime reason why this will work well for the average player, or is there an inherent advantage otherwise, e.g. gradual inevitable misalignment of keycaps overviewed the years so might mean less general servicing?
Pete Thomas - the self leveling pads seal better because a regular pad moves more in the front than the rear so the more you press the heavier you press te front. With the self leveling - the pressure at the rear of the pad is always the same as the pressure in the front. Pressure as always balanced all around the pad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
This has been a long time coming. A properly installed self-leveling pad would reduce a lot of repadding and the headaches that go along with it. I don't think that a change in pad material alone is the answer, but this shows a lot of promise.

I can see some shortcomings to this: How do you keep the the ball-and-socket lubricated and prevent it from becoming fouled?
Bloo dog - So far the pads just seem to keep working. They don't swivel very much and I'm not seeing any wear on the ball. And there is tension on the ball - no loose play to rattle or have an impact from opening/closing. I'm sure something will give out eventually because nothing lasts forever.
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top