[Dagsax]

Do anybody knows when and who introduced the Δ7 symbol to notate a major seven chord?
.... and why?

 

[renaissance_man]

No disrespect, but I think I might be more interested in knowing what keyboard shortcuts you used to create that triangle.

 

[gary]

No disrespect, but I think I might be more interested in knowing what keyboard shortcuts you used to create that triangle.

ROTFL! Man it doesn't take long to get off-topic sometimes, does it?

...and dagsax, I can't answer your question, sorry. These symbols were the way I learned chord terminology and it seemed just like they were always around.

 

[Al Stevens]

Do anybody knows when and who introduced the Δ7 symbol to notate a major seven chord?
.... and why?

Usually it is the delta (Δ) symbol alone without the 7, although I have seen it both ways. The 7 is redundant.

(On a PC, use the Character Map applet from Start/Programs/Accessories/System Tools. Select one or more characters, choose the Copy command, and go to your application and Paste the character string in as if you'd typed it.)

To answer the original question:

Somebody probably do.

 

[Al Stevens]

Seriously, one of the names of the Major 7 chord is the "Delta" chord. Thus the use of the symbol. I don't know how, but I am told that "delta" derives from its other name, the "Major Major" chord.

 

[vivace1]

No clue, but I once got a "0" on jazz theory assignment for using that symbol instead of Maj7 which is apparently the right way to denote a major 7th chord.

 

[gary]

No clue, but I once got a "0" on jazz theory assignment for using that symbol instead of Maj7 which is apparently the right way to denote a major 7th chord.

No - it's the way Jamey Aebersold, Dan Haerle and a bunch of others eventually agreed as to how to standardise jazz chord notation. They didn't get my permission to do it. :twisted:

 

[Al Stevens]

No clue, but I once got a "0" on jazz theory assignment for using that symbol instead of Maj7 which is apparently the right way to denote a major 7th chord.

The "right way" is whatever way effectively communicates the composer/arranger's intentions to the music reader. Virtually all chordal instrument players who read chord symbols know what Δ means.

It is an effective shorthand usage for when a measure is cluttered with several lengthy chord symbols. The half-diminished symbol (slashed circle) serves the same purpose as do the - and + signs for minor and aug.

Educators who downgrade students for using accepted tools that you'll use frequently in the practice of your specialty aren't teaching the profession; they're teaching some textbook version of the profession. They need to get out of the classroom more.

 

[Al Stevens]

No - it's the way Jamey Aebersold, Dan Haerle and a bunch of others eventually agreed as to how to standardise jazz chord notation. They didn't get my permission to do it. :twisted:

That symbolic usage predates Aebersold. I recall it from charts written in the 1950s and maybe before. Assuming my memory is intact. Yeah, right.

 

[Dagsax]

We absolutely have to find an answer to the mystery of the origin of delta (Δ) symbol.

 

[BobbyC]

Here's what I've heard so I don't know if it's right or not.

The triangle is used to represent a major triad.
You know, root, major third and fifth.

Triad - triangle - get it?

Well, that's what I've heard and it seems reasonable.

 

[thejoyofsax]

I've always liked using/reading the delta because the apex of the triangle is pointing upward, which in my mind is symbolic to "major."

 

[Seasax]

I've always liked using/reading the delta because the apex of the triangle is pointing upward, which in my mind is symbolic to "major."

yes, i've always learned it's like an arrow, pointing up for major.

 

[Al Stevens]

Here's what I've heard so I don't know if it's right or not.

The triangle is used to represent a major triad.
You know, root, major third and fifth.

Triad - triangle - get it?

Well, that's what I've heard and it seems reasonable.

In which case, the delta symbol would represent only the major chord and the 7 would be needed to fully describe a Major 7. But it doesn't and it isn't.

Delta doesn't mean three. It means four. It's the fourth letter in the Greek alphabet. It is the digit 4 in the Greek numeral system. It is the fourth chapter of the Alpha Phi Omega fraternity.

Which (speculation here) makes delta a good symbol for Maj7 because the chord consists of four tones in the major scale. That's my guess for the origin of the usage.

 

[renaissance_man]

I don't know, Al. I'm pretty sure that it has yet to be passed into law that the delta symbol automatically includes the major 7, and it certainly isn't the case in the Real Book (and all of its various reincarnations) and other such widespread jazz materials. I personally, like a lot of others here, use the delta symbol alone to indicate a triad - this is especially useful when writing polychords - and I include the 7, 9, 13, or whatever, to express the respective extensions. Otherwise, the only available option for showing a triad would be to use the root alone, and, while it has been done before, in my mind, that just leaves too wide a margin for error, ambiguity, and general confusion and mass hysteria. But, I digress.

Gary, I guess that's just a little too much caffeine this morning. :bounce:

 

[daigle65]

In which case, the delta symbol would represent only the major chord and the 7 would be needed to fully describe a Major 7. But it doesn't and it isn't.

Delta doesn't mean three. It means four. It's the fourth letter in the Greek alphabet. It is the digit 4 in the Greek numeral system. It is the fourth chapter of the Alpha Phi Omega fraternity.

Which (speculation here) makes delta a good symbol for Maj7 because the chord consists of four tones in the major scale. That's my guess for the origin of the usage.

You're a fountain of Knowledge !

 

[Pgraves]

In which case, the delta symbol would represent only the major chord and the 7 would be needed to fully describe a Major 7. But it doesn't and it isn't.

Delta doesn't mean three. It means four. It's the fourth letter in the Greek alphabet. It is the digit 4 in the Greek numeral system. It is the fourth chapter of the Alpha Phi Omega fraternity.

Which (speculation here) makes delta a good symbol for Maj7 because the chord consists of four tones in the major scale. That's my guess for the origin of the usage.

Nice.
For example in this designation C min Δ7 , the triad is specified by "min", the Δ refers to the 7th. The "Δ" (Δ=4) could apply to the 4 half steps in the major third on the top of the chord.

 

[danarsenault]

And now we know why use of the triangle was deprecated. It can mean too many things, whereas Fmin maj7 can only be a soap opera chord. While we hare at it, let's nail down half-diminished (min7flat5) symbols.

 

[hakukani]

Gosh, my writing's been deprecated!?!

I still use minus for min7 chords, too. It's just faster.

 

[gary]

LOL!! Man you guys are just guessing. Here you go:

CΔ (or Δ7) = Maj7
C6 = sixth chord
Cmin Δ7 = minor triad with major 7th added
C- = minor
C- 7 = minor 7
C° = C diminished
C Ø (but with a smaller symbol) = min7(b5) or half-diminished
C+ = augmented

If a 9 was added, it was understood that the chord also contained the 7.

Speculations using logic as to how they came about do not apply. :twisted:

And that's just the way it is.
...Paul Anka