[Swampcabbage]

Just got my horn back from it's fresh overhaul. Emilio Lyons just completed a wonderful job on my '63 VI. And it is absolutely beautiful. Yes, he swedged and did some dent work. And installed it with nickel plated brass resonators from Resotech (yes, my request). And it plays marvelous. Absolutely stunning and quick.

I can't believe it took me this long to get on the resonator wagon. Sure there will be some people that will say it makes no difference. But I played many horns of friends over the years and I was always most impressed by those that had these types of resonators in them. Just killing. The response is so quick I have to adjust....

Now, I knew this is the kind of thing that would happen when I had the overhaul done. I am just stunned when people sell off great horns without having them overhauled first. Or run off buting up all sorts of things that aren't needed when a simple investment in a quality overhaul will resolve most of any poeeible problems that they think is going on. And the remainder of which can be attributed to just practicing.

So, before you sell off that once magnificent horn and surrender to the GAS crisis. Find a trustworthy and resourceful tech, and get that thing in shape. And then see what is really up with it.

If you still want to get rid of it and start doing the 3 card molly with whatever you can get, then fine. But keep in mind. If it ain't setup right, it don't matter how much you paid for it, you aren't getting your moneys worth.

I treasure the fact that my 2 main repairmen over the years have been nothing but trustworthy, positive and resourceful (Emilio and the esteemed Brad Wherry).

And, not only will you avoid the GAS trap but you will help keep local workers employed in your area.

Techs need love too. And also, Resotech gets the big THUMBS up. Man, he does great work. If your getting a job done, I seriously recommend his work. if you don't like metal resos then fine. I just have to say that this horn is twice the beast it was when I had my last job done. Of course I'v done lot's of playing since then, but still. Jeesh.

Okay. Back to the shed.

Oh, also, I figured out a way to make a 30m (or 10M) work in an E-Mute while my VI was being worked on.

Sweet. So, another useless thread from me. Enjoy.

 

[dexdex]

From your perspective, I can only agree. The reality is that a good overhaul costs something around 1 grand. Are you going to invest this on a horn you want to get rid of ?
Furthermore, your most interested buyer might well have other preferences, with pink pads or whatever personal wishes.

 

[Swampcabbage]

That price is far above what I paid.

Still. I would rather spend 1,000 an a horn knowing it would be setup right than spend 2,000 on a hew horn that will still require more setup and probably need an overhaul again in 3 years.

Anyone who's gonna hold out for pink pads is not that serious about a quality horn in my opinion so that idea escapes me.

Getting a good quality horn and having it setup every 8 years give or take is, for me, much more cost beneficial.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

Save the planet!
Treat every new item as if it had a huge resource tax on every non-renewable resource material used in its manufacture. (Which it should have!)
Get quality items restored instead of replacing them.

Save the planet! (And provide work for technicians. Hehe! )

 

[dexdex]

I just got my tenor back from a check-up, and do agree. It immediately postponed my plans for a new horn, so probably saved a couple of trees....
I'm just observing that those among us focusing on buying and selling horns, whatever purpose, might not concentrate on having them setup the best, because it isn't their priority, and because it costs.
BTW, none of my horn has pink pads (unfortunately ...)

 

[Swampcabbage]

And I just can't understand that. I mean, hey, if youre buying and selling horns to make soem extra money, then great. But, if you're interested in getting a quality instrument in order to perform music, why would you not want it to play at it's best.

It would be like buyin a good car with lousy wheels and tires and expecting it to drive effortlessly.

 

[dexdex]

You're right. But your analogy with car dealers is right spot on. Remember the guy in the movie "Matilda", played by Danny DeVito...
We are lucky to have a couple of top techs here in Switzerland, and I fully support your post to thank all of them for the great work they do to help us play music our best.

 

[DanPerezSax]

You make a good argument for regular maintenance... I take my horns in 3 or 4 times a year whether I think they need it or not. I invariably find out that there were leaks I was blowing through and they come back playing much better. My alto is also in its second decade of daily use and there is no talk of an overhaul to be had... a pad change here and there, regulation and I'm good to go. Usually for 20 bucks or so. Much better than letting it get bad and having to shell out a few hundred.

 

[Koen88]

nickel plated reso`s.. sounds decent. In the next year (around march or so) I'm going to do a overhaul myself, under "supervision" of a tech. It was an old martin C-mel, I cleaned it up replaced a few pads but left everything original.. But in march its going to get some new springs all new pads and some new rods due to wear.

and my CB alto is going to get a service in a few weeks, I'm curious if it makes a difference (I only had it for a year now, minus one week)

 

[clarnibass]

The importance of an overhaul and maintenance and avoiding the GAS trap.

Yes, it's pretty amazing how much some players will invest in instruments and mouthpieces but get very cheap with repairs. By far most players are not like this at all, but I'm surprised how many are (it's probably a small % but still).

 

[dexdex]

No surprise, those experienced technicians also know which makes they recommend, which helps to fight GAS. I have to notice that many technicians here in Switzerland get trained near Paris (France, not Taiwan). Do they get contaminated ?

 

[Swampcabbage]

No surprise, those experienced technicians also know which makes they recommend, which helps to fight GAS. I have to notice that many technicians here in Switzerland get trained near Paris (France, not Taiwan). Do they get contaminated ?

Maybe. But I think most of the time a tech will recommend a horn or brand based on what they feel is a good hron for your approach and that they can service with confidence and quality. If not, then I think a new tech is in order and they are certainly contminated.

Yes, it's pretty amazing how much some players will invest in instruments and mouthpieces but get very cheap with repairs. By far most players are not like this at all, but I'm surprised how many are (it's probably a small % but still).

I have known some players with SERIOUS collections who don't keep their horns up and complain about how badly it plays after they paid 5K to 10K on a horn. It's astonishing to me.

nickel plated reso`s.. sounds decent. In the next year (around march or so) I'm going to do a overhaul myself, under "supervision" of a tech. It was an old martin C-mel, I cleaned it up replaced a few pads but left everything original.. But in march its going to get some new springs all new pads and some new rods due to wear.
and my CB alto is going to get a service in a few weeks, I'm curious if it makes a difference (I only had it for a year now, minus one week)

Makes a huge difference for me.

You make a good argument for regular maintenance... I take my horns in 3 or 4 times a year whether I think they need it or not. I invariably find out that there were leaks I was blowing through and they come back playing much better. My alto is also in its second decade of daily use and there is no talk of an overhaul to be had... a pad change here and there, regulation and I'm good to go. Usually for 20 bucks or so. Much better than letting it get bad and having to shell out a few hundred.

And I have maintained horns that way in the past. And some of my horns are kept up in that way today. However, there are some other benefits to having a complete overhaul every 8 to 10 years - or whatever is needed. 1) Some techs will provide complimentary service between overhauls - including pads, corks, and even modifications - this has been my experience. 2) For me, it helps to maintain a consistent feel and character throughout the horn. 3) In this case I really wanted to change the resos on the horn, this would have required an overhaul anyway. 4) In my case - I do play everyday and the wear is generally pretty consistent - so like a car, if one pad starts to go then the rest aren't very far behind. Different strokes I suppose. 3 to 4 times a year x20 = 60 to 80. So every 8 years I would be spending 480 to 640 which is in the neighborhood of what I paid - except I got new resos, pads, corks and a few modifications. However, parting with a big chunk a change at the time can be daunting. Whichever way we do it. Maintenace is imparative to have a truly objective feeling on how ones setup is truly working (Speaking to the GAS issues).

You're right. But your analogy with car dealers is right spot on. Remember the guy in the movie "Matilda", played by Danny DeVito...
We are lucky to have a couple of top techs here in Switzerland, and I fully support your post to thank all of them for the great work they do to help us play music our best.

Oh yeah. Don't get me wrong. I've had work done by some pretty crooked people, IMO. And would always caution everyone to be carefull who and how they choose their technician. It's also funny how many people will spend 150 x's 4 on a bunch of mouthpieces and then another on refaces (guilty) only to try and find something that will play on a leaky horn.

 

[LateNiteSax]

Just had my S80 II alto totally overhauled with plastic resos by Peter Bannon here in Nyack NY. Before it had the stock Selmer rivet metal resos. Aside from the fact that its more responsive and playing flawlessly, its plenty bright enough for me! You need resos for sure. I think the most important thing is that the pads/resos are properly installed together.

 

[abadcliche]

I wholeheartedly agree with the premise of the OP (except my favorite resos are flat seamless metal).

Get a good horn in good condition, get a good and honest repairman, do what they recommend. The large initial investment of doing a good overhaul will pay itself off and then some over time with a horn that plays like it actually should and less trips to your repairman hence (and when you do go, they will be much less expensive than they used to be). Just don't throw the horn down the stairs and you will save time and money while playing a horn that you don't have to fight and you can just listen to yourself play rather than think about it, which is the best musical place to be.

People are always astonished when an old Leblanc or Buescher or whatever off-ish brand that has just gotten an artist-level overhaul will outplay a brand new $6000 whatever, but seriously folks, the horns themselves (speaking about professional horns from most any era) are pretty damn good. They have good bones, and if you know how to listen they will tell you what needs done and how to work with their design quirks to make them fast, slick, comfortable, and reasonably in tune. The unfortunate truth is that not everyone knows how to listen to the horn, not everybody cares enough to take the time to do it right, and not everybody is honest.

 

[Harvey]

Man, whatta great thread. I really enjoyed reading the various opinions and advice from you guys. I responded in another thread that I get my stuff checked out at least a couple times a year. I can't afford to have something not work the way it's supposed to work during a concert.

Most notably, brand new horns have never seemed to play as well as they could in my humble non scientific opinion. Even after half an hour you could tell where adjustments needed to made. Here's the caveat; I think there's a good reason for it though. Some of those horns may be on display for a long time. Pads shouldn't dry out too much but they could. Someone ham handed shouldn't affect an adjustment on a horn when it's held but that person could. Factories know that travel alone can cause who knows what to be affected. Even very good set ups can be knocked around just enough in getting from there to here. So we play test horns to get the basic feel for them. Get a general glimpse into what the potential might be in a given example. It seems to me the first and last thing which should happen to a horn we get is a good set up. The latter if we're considering selling because the horn isn't playing as well as it has in the past. At the very least checking for leaks before writing it off and moving it on down the road.

For some of us GAS is inevitable. Nothing wrong with it if the desire is for a different horn for the sake of liking new things and/or a higher grade of instrument. I'd rather switch reed brands, types, strengths and cuts than horns and mouthpieces though. Seems to easily be as much variation [there] as any other thing on the instruments. Granting a properly set up horn of course.

Harv

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

IMO few horns leave the factory well adjusted.

Many have the pads wedged closed in some sort of vain attempt to carry out the adjustment in transit!

Some saxes don't need this, demonstrating that none should. and I have never found the need for this wedging when returning instruments that I service.

 

[Harvey]

Hi Gordon,

Like you need me to tell you you're right haha

Yeah, I was giving the benefit of the doubt but the idea was definitely in my mind.

Thanks Gordon

Harv

 

[Sigmund451]

I had my horn worked on this summer and felt the same. I was really blowing through a lot of leaks...a lot. We didnt do all the work. It was more a time constraint than money as its not a ton of work. It still needs a bit of swedging and a few chimneys flattened. I need to do that next. Night and day difference with good adjustment.

 

[shmuelyosef]

I wholeheartedly agree with the premise of the OP (except my favorite resos are flat seamless metal).

Just 'resonating' with these remarks. Resos make a big difference (my favorites are the seamless domes). As long as a good quality reso is used that sits tight at the edges (must be stiff enough if flat) to prevent virtual leaks.

My personal preference is to put the largest resos that I can fit on every pad; I play large chamber mouthpieces and have a natutrally dark sound...this combination is (for me) compelling. The difference between large and small resos can be profound. About 5-6 years ago I overhauled two very similar Eastlake Super 20s...one (my own) with big domes and the other (at customer request) with very modest flat resos. The difference was extremely profound, and was (by elimination) determined not to be the necks, which are notoriously variable. The big reso horn was an extremely 'in your face' R&R horn, and the modest one was a much more versatile all around.

 

[shmuelyosef]

IMO few horns leave the factory well adjusted.

Many have the pads wedged closed in some sort of vain attempt to carry out the adjustment in transit!

Some saxes don't need this, demonstrating that none should. and I have never found the need for this wedging when returning instruments that I service.

I don't know about you Gordon, but I am generally appalled at the deep seats embossed into the pads of virtually all new horns. While I do setups on these, the fact that the felt is non-uniformly compressed makes it hard to get the feel right. Most new horns can't be made to play their best without a repad sans wedging.