How is it that Conn made its alto and tenor saxophones with right sided bell keys and pinky clusters tilted well beyond comfort to the left, yet made the 12M with right sided bell keys and a more forward and IMO more comfortable left pinky cluster? The cross-brace is another example where both the NWII and the 12M had a more modern design than their A/T counterparts - much less prone to push-in. The NWII was the instrument of choice for Gerry Mulligan and I do love mine with its fantastic sound, but I it would be more comfortable with right sided bell keys and a 12M is certainly on my wish list. Does anyone here know, how Conn came to designs its baritone saxophones so differently from altos and tenors. Would be interesting to know - thanks!
The Conn 12M baritone saxophone
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
I've been playing Conns since 1978 and the left hand key clusters are essentially the same position on all (though the exact shape of the keys varied over the years). The right side keys on a 12M are achieved by a linkage, just like on King Super 20 and Zephyr. No mystery there.
All of the Conn saxes started out (at New Wonder, I don't know about the really old ones before that) with the low B direct acting on the left side and low Bb with a linkage on the right side. About the time the 6M and 10M went to both on the left and direct acting, the 12M was changed to put both on the right side and with linkage. Why was that design choice made? Darn if I know. I will say that from pictures and some experience playing them, Conn like most manufacturers appears to have put less design effort and fewer updates into baritone than tenor or alto, which makes sense considering sales volumes and amortization costs. The King Zephyr bari being the biggest example of that - a 1920s design still made in the early 80s.
All of the Conn saxes started out (at New Wonder, I don't know about the really old ones before that) with the low B direct acting on the left side and low Bb with a linkage on the right side. About the time the 6M and 10M went to both on the left and direct acting, the 12M was changed to put both on the right side and with linkage. Why was that design choice made? Darn if I know. I will say that from pictures and some experience playing them, Conn like most manufacturers appears to have put less design effort and fewer updates into baritone than tenor or alto, which makes sense considering sales volumes and amortization costs. The King Zephyr bari being the biggest example of that - a 1920s design still made in the early 80s.
I disagree. I am not able to compare directly but feel rather convinced that there is a measurable difference in angle between the 6/10 and the 12M left pinky cluster.
Yes, the Zephyr is the obvious example, but the whole point is that Conn as the most conservative of the major four American saxophone manufacturers went ahead and moved the bell keys on only the 12M to the right side, something they never did for any other models. There has to be a good reason for that. The NWII plays just fine and has a tone that is equal to or better than the 12M, so it is unlikely to have anything to do with sound. I am more thinking that it had something to do with comfort, clothing and such, but none of the other American saxophone makers followed suit (pun intended).
Well, actually,
King went to right side bell keys on Zephyr alto/tenor in the late 30s with a linkage, first Super 20s were right side with linkage, late S20s were right side direct with hinge direction change. I believe Super 20 baritones were both bell keys on left till near the end or to the end.
Buescher went to right side bell keys with a linkage (kind of "behind", really) on the 400 alto, tenor, bari in the early 40s or late 30s (I'm not sure when it was introduced).
Martin stayed on the left (direct action) till the bitter end.
Conn as noted went from split (one linkage, one direct) to left side with the 6M and 10M in the mid 30s, and I have seen adverts where they specifically call out improved direct action.
Selmer went from left side direct (Super) to right side direct (hinge direction change) on the Balanced Action (alto, tenor, bari) although they left the soprano as is until the SA80.
SML was right side with linkage from the 40s on, I believe.
I don't know about 1930s and 1940s Buffets.
What Conn did on the 12M is really not a very difficult or severe change - you move one tone hole around and make a linkage for low B just like the one you already have for low Bb. Were they doing this to try to compete on visuals with the Selmer Balanced Action baritone, but they decided that linkages on alto and tenor would slow the action too much, so they forwent the "no interference with clothes" claim in favor of the "fast direct action"? Who knows, at this point.
Point is, the different companies all took different approaches. I suspect the real motivation was the advertising and the real success of the Selmer Balanced Action layout - everyone had to do SOMETHING to spice up their old split-bell-key models and counter the Selmer claims. (And the Selmer BA was a very fine instrument that really started the dominance of Selmer in the US market.) Some moved the keys round to the right with linkages so the horns looked like Selmer layout, but at the cost of linkages which theoretically slow things down, maybe; others went to both on the left so they had the same "direct action" as the Selmer though they didn't look like the Selmer layout. Of the Americans I think the King Super 20 hinge change was about the only one that (eventually) actually changed to the Selmer layout with hinge rods down the middle.
King went to right side bell keys on Zephyr alto/tenor in the late 30s with a linkage, first Super 20s were right side with linkage, late S20s were right side direct with hinge direction change. I believe Super 20 baritones were both bell keys on left till near the end or to the end.
Buescher went to right side bell keys with a linkage (kind of "behind", really) on the 400 alto, tenor, bari in the early 40s or late 30s (I'm not sure when it was introduced).
Martin stayed on the left (direct action) till the bitter end.
Conn as noted went from split (one linkage, one direct) to left side with the 6M and 10M in the mid 30s, and I have seen adverts where they specifically call out improved direct action.
Selmer went from left side direct (Super) to right side direct (hinge direction change) on the Balanced Action (alto, tenor, bari) although they left the soprano as is until the SA80.
SML was right side with linkage from the 40s on, I believe.
I don't know about 1930s and 1940s Buffets.
What Conn did on the 12M is really not a very difficult or severe change - you move one tone hole around and make a linkage for low B just like the one you already have for low Bb. Were they doing this to try to compete on visuals with the Selmer Balanced Action baritone, but they decided that linkages on alto and tenor would slow the action too much, so they forwent the "no interference with clothes" claim in favor of the "fast direct action"? Who knows, at this point.
Point is, the different companies all took different approaches. I suspect the real motivation was the advertising and the real success of the Selmer Balanced Action layout - everyone had to do SOMETHING to spice up their old split-bell-key models and counter the Selmer claims. (And the Selmer BA was a very fine instrument that really started the dominance of Selmer in the US market.) Some moved the keys round to the right with linkages so the horns looked like Selmer layout, but at the cost of linkages which theoretically slow things down, maybe; others went to both on the left so they had the same "direct action" as the Selmer though they didn't look like the Selmer layout. Of the Americans I think the King Super 20 hinge change was about the only one that (eventually) actually changed to the Selmer layout with hinge rods down the middle.
Joined
·
20,631 Posts
I think the pinky cluster answer is simple. They just decided not to re-design/fabricate a new cluster for the baritones as it was cheaper.
The RH bellkey question is an interesting one. I posit that perhaps it's because since they decided to maintain the old style table, the linkages which were part of the Chu/NW-style pinky table key assemblies made going to same-side bellkeys cheaper to do if bellkeys were to the right (?)
The RH bellkey question is an interesting one. I posit that perhaps it's because since they decided to maintain the old style table, the linkages which were part of the Chu/NW-style pinky table key assemblies made going to same-side bellkeys cheaper to do if bellkeys were to the right (?)
Joined
·
172 Posts
Actually Conn moved the bell keys to the right side for the bari and bass around 1929ish almost 5 years before selmer moved. So one could claim selmer copied them.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Cheapest would just have been sticking to the NWII layout and not bother, just like King didn't bother with the Zephyr.
That was my impression as well. Conn first on the bari.
Generally I find arguments about improving mechanism less likely to believe, when Conn moved the keys to the left side on alto and tenor but to the right on baritone. It just seems totally bizarre unless it had something to do with comfort in playing like complaints from bari saxers in big bands.
I suppose it is 80-90 years too late for a definitive answer...
So my guess:
In the late 20s, American manufacturers are simplifying linkages in general (mostly by moving to left side bell keys) - and Conn on their baritone move the bell keys outside, not to simplify linkages (it does the opposite) but to "avoid muffling sound by having the tone holes next to the player's body.
Selmer observe this and do them one better, by changing the hinge direction, running the rods down the middle, thus direct action (" Balanced Action") on the bell keys of alto tenor and baritone. Aside from this, their new "Balanced Action" model is also one of the finest saxophones ever built, not just because of the left hand little finger keys, but also because of tone, intonation, and the very high standard of manufacture.
Once Selmer introduce the "Balanced Action" series, everyone is playing catch-up; thus the ensuring 20 years of American makers twiddling and tweaking their mechanism designs.
In the late 20s, American manufacturers are simplifying linkages in general (mostly by moving to left side bell keys) - and Conn on their baritone move the bell keys outside, not to simplify linkages (it does the opposite) but to "avoid muffling sound by having the tone holes next to the player's body.
Selmer observe this and do them one better, by changing the hinge direction, running the rods down the middle, thus direct action (" Balanced Action") on the bell keys of alto tenor and baritone. Aside from this, their new "Balanced Action" model is also one of the finest saxophones ever built, not just because of the left hand little finger keys, but also because of tone, intonation, and the very high standard of manufacture.
Once Selmer introduce the "Balanced Action" series, everyone is playing catch-up; thus the ensuring 20 years of American makers twiddling and tweaking their mechanism designs.
Joined
·
172 Posts
You know, I think you're right on that one. Bad on me lol. But even 1931 is 4 years earlier than the selmer BA
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Yeah, whatever, 29 or 31, your point is still correct that Conn went to same side bell keys (left for tenor and alto, right for baritone) well before Selmer launched the Balanced Action. Hence my "alternative history" above.
Joined
·
2,030 Posts
It’s funny you mention this b/c I recently got my first ever bari horn - a 12M - and just a day or so ago while playing my 6M noticed that the 12M’s bell keys were on the right. Of course I had the thing for at least a week before I realized it has a fork-Eb, too (it’s a later ‘50s horn).
My guess for why they shifted the bell keys to the right is just because it was a) easy enough to do and b) easier to play sitting down - you can lean the bell right on your leg. The advantage of a somewhat more direct action / linkage with left-side bell keys vitiated by the fact that, by and large, bari players weren’t expected to be speed demons & weren’t compromised much by the 12M’s set up. That would also account for keeping the old-style G# cluster - and for the Zephyr’s keywork. What was expected of the average bari player was served well enough.
I definitely think the 6M’s keywork was designed with a seated musician in mind. For me the G# cluster, palm keys, and alt F# keys are all easier to manipulate when seated. Haven’t played much on a 10M, but I would guess the same is true for that horn for the G# cluster, at least. So a seated player’s comfort might have been all it took for Conn to switch over.
My guess for why they shifted the bell keys to the right is just because it was a) easy enough to do and b) easier to play sitting down - you can lean the bell right on your leg. The advantage of a somewhat more direct action / linkage with left-side bell keys vitiated by the fact that, by and large, bari players weren’t expected to be speed demons & weren’t compromised much by the 12M’s set up. That would also account for keeping the old-style G# cluster - and for the Zephyr’s keywork. What was expected of the average bari player was served well enough.
I definitely think the 6M’s keywork was designed with a seated musician in mind. For me the G# cluster, palm keys, and alt F# keys are all easier to manipulate when seated. Haven’t played much on a 10M, but I would guess the same is true for that horn for the G# cluster, at least. So a seated player’s comfort might have been all it took for Conn to switch over.
I've played 6M and 10M Conns since 1978 and frankly I don't notice a lick of difference whether seated or standing.
For reference, I play alto and tenor off to the right side, whether sitting or standing; those who play alto in the center or who hold tenor out front when standing (marching band style) migth find a difference. Fortunately I never had to play sax in a marching band so I've been able to establish a proper ergonomic playing posture.
For reference, I play alto and tenor off to the right side, whether sitting or standing; those who play alto in the center or who hold tenor out front when standing (marching band style) migth find a difference. Fortunately I never had to play sax in a marching band so I've been able to establish a proper ergonomic playing posture.
Joined
·
1,038 Posts
I know this thread is old, but I have a few observations regarding some points made above. As to why Conn put the bell keys on the right on the 12Ms I have no direct knowledge or evidence, but, as Hornlip alluded to above, if you've played a bari with left side bell keys a good reason quickly becomes readily apparent. I play a Buescher Big B Aristocrat with left side bell keys. When playing seated with the sax hanging naturally the low B key gets pushed closed when the sax is resting against my leg. To avoid this I either have to rotate the horn to the right or hold it out away from my leg, both of which are somewhat awkward and uncomfortable. I don't find that the sound is muffled at all by the bell keys being on the left. Altos and tenors are short enough that left side bell keys won't hit your leg, unless maybe you're a small child but I'm pretty sure they weren't designing their horns with children in mind at that time.
Conn baris changed to same side bell keys in 1929, altos in 1931, and tenors In 1933 or 1934 (I forgot which). Interestingly, the first Conn saxes, the so-called "Worcester" models of the late 1800s, had same side bell keys (on the left). They changed to split bell keys around 1900, and if I remember rightly marketed that as an improvement to the action. I guess thirty years later they decided it wasn't. Or maybe it was in response to the rising popularity of Selmer, which had same side bell keys since 1922 (on the left side prior to the Balanced Action).
Super 20 baris have right side bell keys. I've never seen one with left side bell keys.
Conn baris changed to same side bell keys in 1929, altos in 1931, and tenors In 1933 or 1934 (I forgot which). Interestingly, the first Conn saxes, the so-called "Worcester" models of the late 1800s, had same side bell keys (on the left). They changed to split bell keys around 1900, and if I remember rightly marketed that as an improvement to the action. I guess thirty years later they decided it wasn't. Or maybe it was in response to the rising popularity of Selmer, which had same side bell keys since 1922 (on the left side prior to the Balanced Action).
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
