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· Distinguished SOTW Technician
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Proposition:

That a moveable weight attached to the crook (or neck) brace will noticeably alter the tone of these horns (and presumably any others to which such a weight can be attached in the same fashion).
The claim is made that by positioning the weight in various places along the length of the brace, there is a noticeable effect on the tone.
The quality of this variance relies on the degree of pressure exterted by the clamp, with the best results said to be achieved when the clamped weight cannot be moved by hand.
Some positions were said to be detrimental to the tone.

The Theory:

That by adding a mass to the crook it will alter the resonance in some fashion, which may be of benefit to the player.

The Specifications:

An elliptical lead weight of some 3oz or thereabouts, with a groove cut across the top at 90 degrees to the length to facilitate a snug fit against the crook brace (being a round section rod of some 4.5mm in diameter) with the aid of a clamping device (a hose clamp).

The Observations:

The proposer discounted other similar experiments on the basis that there was insuficient clamping or that the shape of the mass was wrong. None of these experiments yeilded any noticeable results.

The Test:

A lead weight conforming to the shape specified was made up. On the basis that adding mass to the crook was purported to be beneficial, and to give the device the best chance of working, the weight was made heavier - at around 6oz.


In order to maximise the contact area between the weight and the brace, an integral clamp was fitted. This would be less fussy in use than the hose clamp, less damaging and more efficient (shown above, with an 18.5mm palm key pad for perspective).
Subsequent testing on a Conn 10M led to the following modifications; shortening of the longer screw and the fitment of greased washers beneath the screw heads.
It was found that the weight could be placed anywhere along the entire length of the brace, save for the last centimetre or so at each end.

The sax was played in its unmodified state first, by myself and by its owner, Pete Thomas.
The weight was then fitted to an arbitrary position and the sax tested again.
Pete Thomas was then asked to close his eyes and to keep them shut, while the weight was moved to various positions along the brace - a play test following each change of position.
The degree of clamping was altered, and ranged from loose enough to allow the clamp to be moved up and down the brace and tight enough so that it could not be moved by hand.
It was found that subsequent movements of the weight required the screws to be driven futher in, to counter the compression of the lead against the brace.

I then repeated the tests, playing the sax myself.

Neither Pete nor I found any noticeable difference in the tone or the response of the horn - either for the better or for the worse.
Further testing is to be undertaken by Pete Thomas, and sounclips/video may follow - but on the basis of the test carried out today I personally found no evidence to support the proposal.

Regards,
 

· Out of Office
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
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I must admit that when I first played it with the weight attached I thought perhaps I detected something different, but then subsequently each time I played, with or without the weight, or with the weight at different positions, I perceived no significant difference. Perhaps that first time had been me subconsciously expecting some difference?

Still I intend to do some more testing.
 

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I'm seeing a new Discovery Channel show in your future, we could call it Saxophone Mythbusters, do you guys have mustaches like the dudes in the original show? If not you should start growing them.

 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
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I'm seeing a new Discovery Channel show in your future, we could call it Saxophone Mythbusters, do you guys have mustaches like the dudes in the original show? If not you should start growing them.
Perhaps at least the beret...

 

· Distinguished SOTW Technician
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Obviously, you made it too heavy... :bluewink:
Pete's got that contigency covered - he managed to find a No.3 and a No.4 weight - but to be honest if there's a relationship between tone and mass to be found in this experiment then a larger one would have shown it...even if the results had been to degrade the tone.

Of course I'm keeping in mind that there's a magical tipping point at which the additional mass cancels out any effects and that I just happen to have hit it precisely on the button.

Mind you, Pete could well find that he finds a difference - in which case I shall blame it on the proximity of <insert material here> to the horn while the test was in progress.

Regards,
 

· Distinguished SOTW member/, Official SOTW Sister
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So would it be safe to say that attaching a lead sinker to the neck brace of any saxophone is basically "P-Ligging for sax playing fishermen"?
I just want to be clear on this issue so that I don't attempt to tie a blob of lead to the neck of my tenor with my leather thong.
 

· Distinguished SOTW member/, Official SOTW Sister
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Yeah, I do. But you didn't answer my question.
If my husband should see it tied to the neck of that Pan Am....
 

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Stephen, sorry to hear your attempt failed so miserably. I guess neither of us is exactly a Rheuben Allen. Seems I just got lucky and found pay dirt on the first try. It seems tempting to take an example of your design in hand, to fuss and fiddle, and try to figure out what went wrong. The devil is in the details. On the other hand, why should I? I already have two working examples in hand, with characteristics that vary with one controlled design detail. I have one version with a very precise fit to the strut for maximum efficiency, which starts to bring forth some rather harsh sounds and possibly a drop in the bottom end when moved to a mid-strut position. The original is less precisely fitted, and requires more effort on the clamp screw to make it effective, but results are better sounding in a wider variety of positions on the strut. I might, if I get in the mood, try notching the bottom of the slot on the high efficiency device to "soften" its effects. I really like some of the midrange nuances the lower efficiency design gets in positions that don't sound so good with the higher efficiency design. But right now, it's sitting happily beneath the octave pip. I have been enjoying its effects tremendously. Better luck next time with the 6 oz, transverse-mounted Zeppelin monster! I could certainly understand if you decided to abandon that thing. My system isn't designed for any beauty contests, but it looks downright cute by comparison.

I'm curious, how did you think a hose clamp was supposed to work if the weight were transverse-mounted?
 

· Distinguished SOTW Technician
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Just imagine if it would have worked, most sax shops would have to open a fishing tackle section.
This is related to the point I made in the thread that started this debate off.
If such a mod had worked it would have meant boom time for repairers. Fitting a suspended brace is an easy enough mod, and with a bit of thought and experimentation it wouldn't be too hard to make up a suitable clamp.
Even if you didn't make the parts yourself, there would be plenty of well-paid work in fitting 'kit parts'....though no doubt some savvy dealer would insist the kit had to be fitted in their own workshops or they couldn't guarantee the thing would work.

I reckon the whole mod could be made and fitted for less than a hundred quid - and if it turned out that the brace could be generic (one size fits all, with alto/tenor/bari variants) it would be even cheaper.

In that sense I'm predisposed for these mods to work - but so far none of them have.

Regards,
 

· Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
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of course there would have been a debate to the effectiveness of the lead, against, bronze, silver and gold weights and their advantages over the humble home made lead contraption .........

After all flutists have known this for years and you can change your sound by adding a different crown to your flute, as you do.........


".....In addition to the aesthetic value of gemstones, there is an added benefit of a color change in the sound. This is not as unusual as it seems. All players are aware that a gold flute sounds different than a silver one. Each material has a different density and so vibrates at a different rate. It is this difference in vibration rate that changes the quality of sound. With gemstones, there is a subtle change. For many years players have experimented with different crowns by hollowing them out or adding weights. This will change the vibratory rate and hence the tonal quality. Depending on your instrument and style of playing, a gemstone crown can darken or brighten your sound. Some players use our crowns all the time in place of their original crown. Others choose to use it only when playing in certain groups. For instance, the sound you strive for in an orchestra would be different than that for a jazz group! The description of each crown below includes some of the history and properties of gemstones throughout the world........."
 
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