[Nefertiti]

I just completed a new saxophone video lesson entitled "The Best Embouchure for Tone, Intonation and Endurance Lesson" in which I teach my approach to the saxophone playing embouchure and playing the saxophone. While working on the sax lesson, I thought it would be a cool idea to search the internet for good photos of famous sax player's embouchures. The 24 photos I found in the article below. Let me know what you think.......

https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/2020/06/the-best-saxophone-embouchure-wheres-that-bottom-lip/

 

[turf3]

Well, I think what you're calling "roll out" is actually the bottom lip being squished out. In general the players with a heavier more fleshy mouth structure show more of it.

I believe that every single one of the players shown used the standard saxophone embouchure, which is to have the muscles of the lower lip down into the chin pushing straight up on the reed. The lower teeth provide stabilization. Some of the lower lip squishes inward, and because there are teeth there, it flows over the teeth. Some of it squishes outward, and because there are no teeth there, you can see it. But this is very different from making a "pouting" lower lip which would have the muscles of the lower lip and chin bent outward, which means they can't push up on the reed.

I think the "roll your lower lip outward" admonition came from teachers trying to stop saxophone players from playing with a clarinet embouchure - don't point your chin and pull your lower lip inward tight over your teeth. How do you break a student of that habit? You have them do as much the opposite as possible.

I really doubt whether anyone can effectively play saxophone (except with an incredibly soft reed) with their lower lip in a "pouting" position; the muscles are strong in compression but weak in bending. The "Teal Wheel" is exactly this thing too. You imagine it as the opening of a sack with a drawstring, pushing inward from all directions.

 

[rzzzzz]

may moons ago i tried rolling the bottom lip out a bit, hoping to improve my oral hygiene, but found that on the contrary, i was getting more irritation. i toyed with rolling it out completely, but the immediate results did not encourage more than a trial run. returning to the familiar lower lip placement, but focusing on minimum jaw pressure gave me my best result. ymmv.

 

[Morph1590]

A great collection of photos!

I usually thing of the embouchure as neutral - definitely not rolled over the teeth but equally not rolled out either...for me its like saying the letter "V" as in "very". HOWEVER students always want to roll their lip over their teeth (because their lip muscles aren't yet strong enough to support the reed I believe) so lip out is the usual advice I give. Indeed, this is how I was taught, a teacher "corrected" my embouchure as I had been playing with my lip rolled over my teeth.

 

[Nefertiti]

Well, I think what you're calling "roll out" is actually the bottom lip being squished out. In general the players with a heavier more fleshy mouth structure show more of it.

I believe that every single one of the players shown used the standard saxophone embouchure, which is to have the muscles of the lower lip down into the chin pushing straight up on the reed. The lower teeth provide stabilization. Some of the lower lip squishes inward, and because there are teeth there, it flows over the teeth. Some of it squishes outward, and because there are no teeth there, you can see it. But this is very different from making a "pouting" lower lip which would have the muscles of the lower lip and chin bent outward, which means they can't push up on the reed.

I think the "roll your lower lip outward" admonition came from teachers trying to stop saxophone players from playing with a clarinet embouchure - don't point your chin and pull your lower lip inward tight over your teeth. How do you break a student of that habit? You have them do as much the opposite as possible.

I really doubt whether anyone can effectively play saxophone (except with an incredibly soft reed) with their lower lip in a "pouting" position; the muscles are strong in compression but weak in bending. The "Teal Wheel" is exactly this thing too. You imagine it as the opening of a sack with a drawstring, pushing inward from all directions.

I think you would have to watch the lesson to get my full description. You can call it squished out also if you prefer that. I talk in the lesson about it's not about pouting the lip way out away from the teeth but they are against the teeth. I'm calling it roll out because you can see the bottom lip and it looks rolled out under the reed. I guess the extreme would be "pout out" which would be more like Arnett Cobb.

 

[saxoclese]

A few observations. First of all there are different styles of music and concepts of a saxophone sound. The "best" embouchure for a jazz or rock musician may not be the same as the "best" embouchure for a musician who plays classical saxophone. The "bottom lip rolled out" expression is used a lot in discussions about saxophone embouchures. In my opinion there is a big difference between where there is no lip covering the bottom teeth and the lower lip is completely "rolled out" and where a player has a large or full lower lip that looks as if most of the lip is forward even when there is still a portion of the lip pushed or "rolled" back to form a cushion between the bottom teeth and the reed. The last comment is perhaps the most important, and that is the embouchure that works the best for one player is not necessarily the embouchure that works the best for another player even when playing the same style of music due to differences in physiology and concept of tone.

 

[1saxman]

How would you even be able to play with NO lip over the lower teeth? I discovered the lip-out embouchure in 1964 when I came home from a long-term gig 100 miles away on a day off. I went to the music store and was showing the owner where I actually bit through UNDER the lower lip - I was using an extreme roll-back embouchure and didn't realize it. He told me about the 1930s where they had to play dance marathons and guys were doing the same thing. They started using what they called the 'pooch-mouth'. Like you were saying 'pooch', with the lip rolled out instead of in. Man, this saved my playing career and helped give me a fatter sound. Players today don't care about volume/projection or even tone quality so I guess all this talk about embouchure is rather pointless. But if any of you actually want to have a fatter, more lush sound, this is the way to get it.

 

[A Greene]

Thanks for posting these photos. I originally played with my bottom lip completely rolled in but later in life notice photos of players that look very natural when playing - I did not. I switched to really soft reeds, pouted out my bottom lip, and spent a couple years relaxing everything. Certainly not a classical approach but it really opened helped me find my sound. I also favor large hard rubber mouthpieces to further help keep everything relaxed.

 

[ZootTheSim]

Players today don't care about volume/projection or even tone quality so I guess all this talk about embouchure is rather pointless.

Really?? I guess that some may rely more on amplification than in the past. But tone quality?

 

[because]

I actually play with a "roll in" style, HOWEVER, I play a lot, often 5 nights per week, & have found it so very necessary to be able to shift to a "roll out" style! There are times when my lower lip becomes irritated because of a bite, or a raw reed surface, or when I play clarinet & tend to over bite, or have actually had it somehow caught between the reed & mouthpiece ( no clue how this happened) etc etc. The ability to roll out my bottom lip when needed has proven extremely valuable & keep me working!

My deepest suggestion, is to learn both methods

 

[Nefertiti]

I actually play with a "roll in" style, HOWEVER, I play a lot, often 5 nights per week, & have found it so very necessary to be able to shift to a "roll out" style! There are times when my lower lip becomes irritated because of a bite, or a raw reed surface, or when I play clarinet & tend to over bite, or have actually had it somehow caught between the reed & mouthpiece ( no clue how this happened) etc etc. The ability to roll out my bottom lip when needed has proven extremely valuable & keep me working!

My deepest suggestion, is to learn both methods

It's funny but I can barely do the roll in embouchure anymore. Sometimes I try to show it to students and it feels so foreign and weird that I can barely do it.....

 

[Morph1590]

I think you would have to watch the lesson to get my full description. You can call it squished out also if you prefer that. I talk in the lesson about it's not about pouting the lip way out away from the teeth but they are against the teeth. I'm calling it roll out because you can see the bottom lip and it looks rolled out under the reed. I guess the extreme would be "pout out" which would be more like Arnett Cobb.

This is same for me. It looks like the lip is rolled out but it's really a more neutral and natural position (Bergonzi calls it the "no embouchure").

Could we talk about Altissimo though? Even though I believe I play with the "lip out" embouchure, I've found that after lots of altissimo practice my lip can be sore (from my teeth) meaning it's not quite as "lip out" as I think! I wonder if I tuck my lip in a bit as I ascend....does anyone else have this experience?

One ques

 

[Nefertiti]

How would you even be able to play with NO lip over the lower teeth? I discovered the lip-out embouchure in 1964 when I came home from a long-term gig 100 miles away on a day off. I went to the music store and was showing the owner where I actually bit through UNDER the lower lip - I was using an extreme roll-back embouchure and didn't realize it. He told me about the 1930s where they had to play dance marathons and guys were doing the same thing. They started using what they called the 'pooch-mouth'. Like you were saying 'pooch', with the lip rolled out instead of in. Man, this saved my playing career and helped give me a fatter sound. Players today don't care about volume/projection or even tone quality so I guess all this talk about embouchure is rather pointless. But if any of you actually want to have a fatter, more lush sound, this is the way to get it.

I am not teaching no lip over the lower teeth. I talk about it in depth in the video lesson on the subject. At least what I am doing and how I teach. The bottom lip is against the bottom teeth and depending on the angle of the mouthpiece into the mouth that affects how much of the lower lip is pressed towards the teeth. It is a roll out in the sense that the lips are pursed like I am going to kiss someone or drink from a straw. I believe that a downward tilt to the head puts less pressure on the lips against the reed.

 

[Nefertiti]

This is same for me. It looks like the lip is rolled out but it's really a more neutral and natural position (Bergonzi calls it the "no embouchure").

Could we talk about Altissimo though? Even though I believe I play with the "lip out" embouchure, I've found that after lots of altissimo practice my lip can be sore (from my teeth) meaning it's not quite as "lip out" as I think! I wonder if I tuck my lip in a bit as I ascend....does anyone else have this experience?

One ques

My lip can get sore with lots of altissimo also. What I do is move my lower jaw forward a fraction for altissimo. I am not biting but slightly moving that wall behind the lower teeth forward a small amount which adds a little more pressure. I believe Brecker did this also as when I see Brecker play in the altissimo I almost always see similar movements in his embouchure and jaw. The most important part is to let the muscles carry the bottom lip like 90% and the teeth are there for that 10% support wall if that makes sense. Get me video lesson if you want more details on all of this stuff..........

 

[SimonJazzSax]

Players today don't care about volume/projection or even tone quality so I guess all this talk about embouchure is rather pointless. But if any of you actually want to have a fatter, more lush sound, this is the way to get it.

I certainly care about volume and projection. I also care intensely about tone. I know a lot of others that do as well. I also don't use the roll out method and get a fat and hopefully lush sound. So I think it just depends on the player really. You get more buzz and edge to your sound rolling out compared to covering.

Sent from my HD1925 using Tapatalk

 

[10mfan]

When I put the mouthpiece in my mouth, I just let a little of the bottom lip go over the bottom teeth, and thats it.
I guess you'd call that the roll-over style.

 

[lydian]

This is good stuff, Nef. Photos like this were invaluable to me as a kid. Back in the 70's, my first band teacher was a clarinet player and naturally taught me a clarinet embouchure. But I couldn't get the sound all my idols were getting. So I studied pics like this as well as watched live performers, and, boom, when I used the embouchure I saw in the pics, I got the sound I was after. It was an epiphany.

The amount of roll is a very minor detail, IMO. Yes, you'll get a change in timbre, but ultimately, doing what's comfortable and reproduces the sound in your head is all that matters. The key takeaways here are:

- Significant bottom lip cushion (rolled in or out doesn't matter all that much)
- Chin muscle support
- Jaw flexibility (up/down/in/out)

The chin muscle support is the most significant, I think. Without it, you're back to a clarinet embouchure. With that support, you get a whole world of possibilities from screaming altissimo to lush subtone and everything in between.

 

[rcpayne]

Many years ago I saw a picture of a marching band from somewhere in central America. There was a good picture of the sax players and they all had their mouthpieces on upside-down. So I tried that just for fun and I can tell you you'll never get a sore lower lip that way. Of course articulation becomes problematic and the tone is ugh.

 

[J-Moen]

Thanks for this Steve. Great stuff here and I'll be jumping in for this lesson! Hopefully I can get a better feel for my current issues!

 

[ZootTheSim]

In January, I was living abroad with only my clarinet, and was worried my sax playing would suffer after a month of neglect. But upon returning, my altos and tenors sounded so much better and played much more easily than before! Turns out I'd been rolling my lip out too far, and needed to reign it in a bit for better support, which the clarinet had encouraged.

Of course, a teacher probably would've caught the issue sooner. I'm hoping to take some lessons, once it's allowed again.