[vonbraig]

I am very interested in soloing using more than 8th note lines to the point where the lines are really only coming out about 1/2 the time. I'm not doing it on purpose either. Also the amount of time I'm really playing the lines down the pipe groove wise is about half of that.

I am talking about standards too not just free playing. There are so many options other than running changes. I think for me its a big improvement.

Some of the trills and smears and grunts and groans I've been told, by a player I really take the opinion of seriously, sound out of control.

I don't see that as a negative though.

Anybody else play like this?

 

[Nefertiti]

I'm not sure what you are asking? What do grunts,groans,trills and smears have to do with 8th note lines?

 

[Wade Cornell]

Musical examples would be helpful to illustrate what you're talking about (if you can be bothered).

 

[EE NYC]

I am very interested in soloing using more than 8th note lines to the point where the lines are really only coming out about 1/2 the time. I'm not doing it on purpose either. Also the amount of time I'm really playing the lines down the pipe groove wise is about half of that. I am talking about standards too not just free playing. There are so many options other than running changes. I think for me its a big improvement. Some of the trills and smears and grunts and groans I've been told, by a player I really take the opinion of seriously, sound out of control. I don't see that as a negative though. Anybody else play like this?

I get what you mean. I think it's a phrasing issue for the most part. It's entirely possible to play free (rhythmically) while still playing the changes in time. Many horn players default to the eighth note mode in a strongly metric orientation. But if we imagine ourselves as singers, playing with the phrasing while still in time it opens up another world. With strong internal time we can do anything we want with our phrasing and still keep our place in the tune. By going further then and introducing the kinds of tonal effects you mention we can add expression. But if the player lacks accurate time and melodic/harmonic control these effects could certainly sound superfluous (or worse). It's easy to get ahead of one's self in this regard.

 

[JohnGalt]

I am very interested in soloing using more than 8th note lines to the point where the lines are really only coming out about 1/2 the time. I'm not doing it on purpose either. Also the amount of time I'm really playing the lines down the pipe groove wise is about half of that.

I am talking about standards too not just free playing. There are so many options other than running changes. I think for me its a big improvement.

Some of the trills and smears and grunts and groans I've been told, by a player I really take the opinion of seriously, sound out of control.

I don't see that as a negative though.

Anybody else play like this?

When I was young I played like that. I thought improvising was about playing alot of notes .... no linear concept of harmony being expressed, no groove ... just trying to imitate what I thought (in my kid mind) good players do ... of course I was way off ...

 

[hakukani]

I like to think more texture than line...not that anyone really cares to hear...

 

[Mike1955]

Sure, what's the common denominator when playing a solo as impressionable sax players? To spew out as many notes as possible. Why do I say impressionable? Because isn't it true that we all want to emulate the greats in note choice, phrasing, rhythm, and possibly holding a cigarette in the right hand as we finger the notes? Well, if you happen to be a smoker. But I guess with today's standards of non-smoking, clubs don't support that type of emulation anymore.

I believe the challenge and the pursuit should be the least amount of notes as possible with the most content within those few notes as the main focus, and everything else to simply compliment that basis. Now that's difficult. Heavy use of notes as in continual 8th note runs may simply imply a deficiency in being able to do this. I suffer in this deficiency as well as countless others.
What paying customer wants to sit there and listen to a sax player, or any other instrumentalist, perform like a singer does? They want more for their money so you'd better get crackin' on laying down some serious 8th and 16th note lines!

Oh yeah....What's a 'smear'?

 

[tenorcat]

VB, I think I have been thinking the same things you are going through. I think you are who you are. We all are individually who we are. It might be hard to come to grips with that, but it sounds like a few of the last posters get that. The sooner you can have that conversation with yourself in terms of your playing, the better. We are all so different too, it's hard to relate experience with words.

I had been working on Bird's tune Back Home Blues, memorize the head and changes. I flipped on the TV and saw this interview. It gave me great reassurance to hear someone who helped invent the music and has played with 'everybody', talk about what makes them tick.

At the end, when he played the tune, it really resonated with me. Very simple and powerful. There are a couple places where his technique fails him and stuff is a little ragged, (picky, picky) but is there any doubt about what he is saying is authentic and real from the heart? Does one need to play more than eighth notes... or are strings of eighth notes an over abundance of material anyway?

My friend say hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do... my other friend says running four laps of qualifying at Indy is the hardest thing to do... I say playing hip swinging, straight eighth notes lines, no more and no less is the hardest thing to do.

[video]http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/5961[/video]

(skip the interview to the 11:00 mark- put on head phones :|)

 

[vonbraig]

Well a smear is a move between notes or not done with the lip and loosening the chops in my book and using the keys too. Kind of.

I am not saying EE that this is something I put on my students, I don't have any nearly that advanced but for me being 45 and trying to find my thing all bets are off.

Playing a gig Tuesday with some of the top guys here so maybe I'll put something up to illustrate my point.

CB

 

[vonbraig]

Mike, straight up?

 

[vonbraig]

tenorcat,

I watched that 10 seconds about 5 times. The bassist I have a duo with here in STL and teach with at Webster just got a bass that he had made in France. "He made a bass that plays like I do." I believe you "teach" your instrument to play like you hear. If you're careful. Thanks for that.

 

[Ken]

I was sitting in on my teacher's gig earlier tonight and was doing this. Not starting the solo with lines, but phrasing more, taking time to get into the tune. Once getting into it then I started playing some partial lines and playing my own thing afterwards, still phrasing. It seemed to influence the other players too, they played a similar way in their solo.

My teacher gave me a lot of lines in my lessons, and once I had them down one thing he said was all you have to do now is phrase more and play around the tonal centers.

 

[vonbraig]

Yea I'm starting to hear some people trying to go this way a little at some sessions i play at most weeks. I havn't said anything about it to anyone but here.

Funny thing is when I practice I just play lines. That other stuff sort of is just kind of coming out on the gig.

Practicing alto today and its all just coming out bebop, or as close to it as I get.

The bottom line is the more ways you can play the more you can express yourself.

However for me the core is still the swinging line right down the pipe as good as I can do.

 

[bob3dsf]

Forgive me, but why is it: "8th notes" and "phrasing," as if they are separate things? And, why would anyone want there to be a distinction between the two anyhow?

If I understand the OP correctly, then I agree in that I think soloing with endless 8th note lines as a "rule" is a weak and immature improv approach. I've actually read on other forums (my old Latin instructor please forgive me), and maybe this one too (can't really remember), that playing with 8th notes exclusively is a good way to develop voice leading and melodicism. What!? You've GOT to be kidding me. I always roll my eyes when I read people/instructors/whomever suggest using longer note values and **gasp** rests as options for playing your lines. Like its a big mystery or closely guarded secret knowledge. Yea, I think I've heard something about themes and development...hmmm...

Maybe I understand "lines" in a different way, but I also feel that the overuse of 8th note lines is a result of prevailing pedagogy in music schools. Its just surprising to me to hear the idea that "phrasing" is using anything other than long strings of 8th notes. To me, phrasing is how you communicate your ideas, regardless of which note values are being used. Hopefully they all are in some way or another. I guess I should end my rant here, I feel I'm starting to run on.