[SaxTMan]

So the question for today is:

who as the best tenor selmer horn, regarding to intonation.
If you think your horn is one with the best intonation you ever tried, post your 'chart' here.

I'm curious to know what good intonation in a horn looks like :mrgreen:

 

[Pete Thomas]

If you think your horn is one with the best intonation you ever tried, post your 'chart' here.

By "chart", do you mean based on a readout from a tuner? If so you would need to set some constants, e.g. which note one tunes to, the sort of embouchure, do people adjust their embouchure to tune in a certain way. Do they look at the tuner while playing?

Also, would you take equal temperament to be a necessary part of good intonation?

I mean, if I was to play a scale, without reference to a keyboard, it would show as being all over the place on an equal temperament tuner.

 

[SaxTMan]

By "chart", do you mean based on a readout from a tuner? If so you would need to set some constants, e.g. which note one tunes to, the sort of embouchure, do people adjust their embouchure to tune in a certain way. Do they look at the tuner while playing?

Also, would you take equal temperament to be a necessary part of good intonation?

I mean, if I was to play a scale, without reference to a keyboard, it would show as being all over the place on an equal temperament tuner.

All you said are good point indeed.
Let's say, tuning note A=440hz (concert key) (but if you have time you can do the same to Bb concert and low Bb concert).

Non embouchure-embouchure (preference)

About looking at the tuner...that is not a good thing, but is not easy someone find a person to register the results. I will leave this freely, but if you guys have someone to pick the tuner for you that would be better.

Equal tempered is of course a part of good intonation. But not to complicate to much let's just use - just intonation - to this kind of exercise.

Is there equal temperament tuner? i really didn't knew that...

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is there equal temperament tuner? i really didn't knew that...

Tuners are usually equal temperament. I use an iPhone app that also has other temperaments, but the physical ones are all (I think) equal).

Equal tempered is of course a part of good intonation.

Yes, but other intonations are not necessarily bad or wrong

 

[Randall]

Selmer Ref 54- easily #1
B&S Medusa- Not a Selmer but actually better than the Selmer- #1+
Selmer Series III- #2...a VERY close #2
Selmer Series II- #3
Selmer MK VI- #4
Selmer SBA- #5
Selmer BA- #6

 

[Souportwenty]

I'm curious to know what good intonation in a horn looks like :mrgreen:

I believe the answer to that question is it looks much like the person behind the saxophone at the time. Did you hear about the sax player that always played perfectly in tune? A Liar...

 

[warp x]

Intonation comes from the player, not from the horn. (assuming were talking good quality instruments here)
So, such charts don't mean anything.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I believe the answer to that question is it looks much like the person behind the saxophone at the time. Did you hear about the sax player that always played perfectly in tune? A Liar...

Intonation comes from the player, not from the horn. (assuming were talking good quality instruments here)
So, such charts don't mean anything.

While I agree mostly with these statements, there are some horns that any one player may find more in tune for themselves, but that doesn't mean it will be more in tune for someone else.

 

[playatsax]

Who cares what the tuner says. Play your horn, learn your horn and use your ear. After that, you won't ever need a tuner again.

 

[martinm5862]

All you said are good point indeed.
Let's say, tuning note A=440hz (concert key) (but if you have time you can do the same to Bb concert and low Bb concert).

Non embouchure-embouchure (preference)

About looking at the tuner...that is not a good thing, but is not easy someone find a person to register the results. I will leave this freely, but if you guys have someone to pick the tuner for you that would be better.

Equal tempered is of course a part of good intonation. But not to complicate to much let's just use - just intonation - to this kind of exercise.

Is there equal temperament tuner? i really didn't knew that...

All the modern Selmers, Yamahas, Yanigasawas, and many of the Chinese horns can be played in tune. Just pick one you like or have an experienced player pick one for you and work with it. I think you have to work with equal temperament to train your ear. Pianos for the most part are equally tempered. Almost all tuners are equal temperament. I haven't seen any
that weren't. When you play with a piano you will use equal temperament. That's good enough at your stage of development.

 

[martinm5862]

All you said are good point indeed.
Let's say, tuning note A=440hz (concert key) (but if you have time you can do the same to Bb concert and low Bb concert).

Non embouchure-embouchure (preference)

About looking at the tuner...that is not a good thing, but is not easy someone find a person to register the results. I will leave this freely, but if you guys have someone to pick the tuner for you that would be better.

Equal tempered is of course a part of good intonation. But not to complicate to much let's just use - just intonation - to this kind of exercise.

Is there equal temperament tuner? i really didn't knew that...

It's OK to look at the tuner when you practice. As you advance you will need it less, hopefully. Many players you will play with won't even know what just tuning is. When you develop a good ear for pitch it should come naturally when you play with
more experienced players.

 

[Souportwenty]

...there are some horns that any one player may find more in tune for themselves, but that doesn't mean it will be more in tune for someone else.

As is often the case, I agree with you Pete. My expereince with MKVI sopranos in the past was so brutal I just assumed I was never able to play the soprano as I heard others play these models so much more "in tune" than I could. I worked at it for about four months (not that long I agree but I was putting in hours many days and I remember the frustration of the experience more than anything else...). I played a Yamaha Custom many years later and instantly discovered this sax was far easier for me to play in tune. I now play a Jupiter soprano that is way easier for me to play in tune after five minutes than the Selmer soprano ever was. I suspect there is more to this than just the design of the sax and it's inherent scale. There are so many variables (personal physiology, mouthpiece, reed, air stream control, ligature) I'm pretty sure I am not qualified to make any blanket statements about which particular brand of saxophone would address the intonation issues for the masses. I personally think modern sopranos are easier to play in tune but many who swear by the vintage sopranos are willing to learn to adjust their embouchures in order to enjoy a tone colour they like. Most great things in life involve some compromise...

 

[whaler]

Sharp is always better. Just ask Charlie Rouse and Jackie McLean.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Sharp is always better.

It's certainly much better than playing out of tune.

Almost all tuners are equal temperament. I haven't seen any
that weren't.

Cleartune has many different temperaments.

 

[SaxTMan]

I believe the answer to that question is it looks much like the person behind the saxophone at the time. Did you hear about the sax player that always played perfectly in tune? A Liar...

yes, almost always, more than one. But they have a incredible hear. But that is not the point. You're misinterpreting what i want from this thread. What i want is that the player doesn't change the intonation of the horn as much as he can. The goal is just the horn (of course this is way difficult, but try that).

The thing of the player/horn relationship is a fact. Nothing of that is new. So to not lose time we should avoid talk about that. Again, the goal is the horn, not the player. For some of the sotw there will be a philosophically and acoustic post about that. I don't care about that. When someone answers to a easy question with a complex response, most of the times the one who is answer didn't understood the simple nature of the question. Think horses, not zebras.

thanks

Edit. Again, i've the all the posts. Why are you telling things that i didn't asked? why? do you guys have a chip? maybe i'm being mean, but the question is more simple that your answers. Cam on... the player is important? you should choose a horn that...? it's not my question... i'm talking about horns period. I'm not knew at this, everything what you said has been said thousands of times. The goal of the thread is simple...the horn! i'm not talking about buying horns...i'm not talking about the players....just blow and do not change embouchure. That is the (almost) the horn...

 

[MyMartinTenor]

I've been playing a long time. I've never made such a chart for any horn I've ever owned. That's why you're finding resistance -- no one really keeps such a thing laying around. I've never heard of it.

 

[warp x]

Well maybe you should start by posting your own chart.

 

[Souportwenty]

So the question for today is:

I'm curious to know what good intonation in a horn looks like :mrgreen:

I certainly was not trying to be difficult. I believe my post was a direct response to the question. Pete's addition to mine also seemed to address the concept that one sax may not be the best for all players. If I have missed the point, it is only because I was not alone in finding the question unclear (although I thought it was fairly straightforward...). The idea of "all things being equal" really doesn't seem to apply as all things will never be equal IMHO. However, if someone can tell us about the sax that has the best intonation for every player, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[thadnoland]

Here's a long, drawn out, bad joke (not mine) for the thread:

The animals were bored. Finally, the lion had an idea. "I know a really exciting game that the humans play called football. I've seen it on T.V."

He proceeded to describe it to the rest of the animals and they all got excited about it so they decided to play. They went out to the field and chose up teams and were ready to begin.

The lion's team received. They were able to get two first downs and then had to punt. The mule punted and the rhino was back deep for the kick. He caught the ball, lowered his head and charged. First, he crushed a roadrunner, then two rabbits. He gored a wildebeest, knocked over two cows, and broke through to daylight, scoring six.

Unfortunately, they lacked a place-kicker, and the score remained 6 - 0.

Late in the first half the lion's team scored a touchdown and the mule kicked the extra point. The lion's team led at halftime 7 - 6. In the locker room, the lion gave a pep talk. "Look you guys. We can win this game. We've got the lead and they only have one real threat. We've got to keep the ball away from the rhino, he's a killer. Mule, when you kick off be sure to keep it away from the rhino."

The second half began. Just as the mule was about to kick off, the rhino's team changed formation and the ball went directly to the rhino. Once again, the rhino lowered his head and was off running. First, he stomped two gazelles. He skewered a zebra, and bulldozed an elephant out of the way. It looked like he was home free. Suddenly at the twenty-yard line, he dropped over dead. There were no other animals in sight anywhere near him. The lion went over to see what had happened. Right next to the dead rhino he saw a small centipede.

"Did you do this?" he asked the centipede.

"Yeah, I did." the centipede replied.

The lion retorted, "Where were you during the first half?"

"I was putting on my shoes."

I didn't read it. Did you?

 

[Thomas]

I've been playing a long time. I've never made such a chart for any horn I've ever owned. That's why you're finding resistance -- no one really keeps such a thing laying around. I've never heard of it.

I've never even owned a tuner--if I had I'm sure I wouldn't have bothered to chart the horn!