Tenor Battle 1979 Netherlands - Budd Johnson, Dexter Gordon and Illinois Jacquet in Flying Home

21763 Views 60 Replies 16 Participants Last post by mrpeebee, May 30, 2011

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · Mar 2, 2011

Just found a fantastic video of Flying Home, as played in 1979 in The Netherlands at the North Sea Jazz Festival during a tenor-battle with Budd Johnson, Dexter Gordon, Illinois Jacquet, Arnett Cobb and Buddy Tate. I was there as a 17 year old non playing jazz lover and it turned me to start playing tenor a few years later.

Nicest moment for me is when Dexter starts his solo: he plays a part of the famous solo as played by Illinois Jacquet back in 1942. Look at the face of Illinois at 2:42 and Dexter's gesture at 2:50 (and the face of Arnett Cobb in the back), fantastic!!! Remember that Dexter and Illinois both played tenor in the Hampton band when Jacquet recorded this solo.

Two other great video's of the same tenor-battle, featuring Arnett Cobb and Buddy Tate, are also on YouTube:

(I have posted that link before here on SOTW)

Enjoy!!!

41 - 60 of 61 Posts

sideC

· #41 · Mar 4, 2011

mrpeebee said:
Thanks for asking Mr. sideC . I played at that time in an amateur band called Bob Sesion. Bob was our bandleader, a retired professional music teacher who played clarinet, alto and piano. The rest of the band was full time amateur! We mainly tried to play straight ahead jazz. The instrumentation was clarinet/alto/piano (Bob), tenor (me!), baritone, trumpet, vibraphone, guitar, bass and drums (I liked that setting very much).

I have some old recordings of that time (around 1999) on my SoundClick page. Bit reluctant to post the links in this thread full of great professional players, because the quality of the recording and the musicians is by far not up to the other postings in this thread. But anyhow, here are some links:

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9607310 - Walkin Shoes (studio) - my solo starts around 3:06
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10037993 - 7 Come 11 (live) - my solo starts around 3:02
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9607401 - Just A Closer Walk With Thee (live) - feature of me (inspired by Mr. Arnett Cobb)

I played at that time on a Selmer SBA of 1952 with a metal Otto Link Early Babbitt 8* mouthpiece.

Peter, I'm just listening to your tracks, my time for listening is better today than it was yesterday, so sorry for the delay.

Wow, you guys got it going on! Very good band, and some nice, tasty solos. I'm really impressed over here. There's a character to what you guys are doing with the tunes, and that's very important to me. Sounds like you're having a really good time, and that's coming out through the music.

Peter, your playing is outstanding, IMHO. You're displaying a nice organic sound, and it seems like you're not afraid to be a little whimsical about things. Ha ha ha. I was smiling listening to your 7 Come 11 solo, and your Just A Closer Walk feature. Your tenor covers lots of ground, stylisticly.

Man, you're making my day. Thanks for sharing!

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #42 · Mar 4, 2011

Wow Mr. sideC, that are great compliments coming from you, thanks, really appreciate that

!

Indeed we had a band that only played tunes we liked ourselfs. I brought in quite some tunes coming from my record and CD collection, but I'm very bad in reading and writing music, so Bob (our leader) put them on paper and sometimes added some extra voicing. Still miss that band, we quit about 5 years ago. I now play in a Big Band as first tenor and primairy solist. I like it, but I miss the freedom of a small combo (and don't have time to play in more then one band right now).

PS. We also played a tune of IJ which I brought in. It's a nice blues called 'Banned in Boston', recorded by IJ and Roy Eldridge in 1962.

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #43 · Mar 4, 2011

rleitch said:
ps. I think it's out of print, but it looks like 3 copies of Mr. SideC's cd are on ebay right now. Great chance to snag a great cd!

http://music.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_...odkw=&_osacat=307&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I just ordered one, thanks for posting!

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #44 · Mar 4, 2011

LiAm84 said:
...Sorry to mention horns but it looks from pictures like he in fact played a SBA not a BA...

I did some further checking on the sax pictures of IJ and think it's a BA, like sideC also mentioned in one of his posts.

Please check this picture (posted in this thread #10):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Illinoisjacquet.jpg

When you blow it up to super size you can see in the right bottom (on the bell) a serial number. For me it's 29166 or something close to that. That number is listed as a Balanced Action of around 1939 in the Selmer serial number chards:
http://saxofoons.volop.info/serienummers-selmer

Some other differences between BA and SBA are listed here:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?154248-SBA-Owners-Club&p=1604989&viewfull=1#post1604989

One of the striking differences is that BA's have the serial number on the bell and SBA's under the thumbrest, so that also makes this one probably a BA.

According to sideC IJ himself didn't bother at all about this, see post #19 in this thread: "It ain't no balanced action, it's a Selmer,"

!

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LiAm84

· #45 · Mar 5, 2011

mrpeebee said:
I did some further checking on the sax pictures of IJ and think it's a BA, like sideC also mentioned in one of his posts.

Please check this picture (posted in this thread #10):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Illinoisjacquet.jpg

When you blow it up to super size you can see in the right bottom (on the bell) a serial number. For me it's 29166 or something close to that. That number is listed as a Balanced Action of around 1939 in the Selmer serial number chards:
http://saxofoons.volop.info/serienummers-selmer

One of the striking differences is that BA's have the serial number on the bell and SBA's under the thumbrest, so that also makes this one probably a BA.

You are right about that picture. It is a BA. But that isn't the horn that Illinois Jacquet played in latter years... for example in the video you posted he is playing a SBA which you can distinguish by the adjustable Gsharp and longer bow compared to a BA. See following picture:

Musical instrument Saxophone Reed instrument Saxophonist Reed

Musical instrument Saxophone Reed Musician Saxophonist

Musical instrument Photograph Microphone Musician Reed instrument

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LiAm84

· #46 · Mar 5, 2011

I also found some pictures of Illinois Jacquet with his BA and Conn 30m:

Musical instrument Smile Photograph Reed instrument Saxophonist

Musical instrument Reed Musician Saxophone Concert

Clothing Reed Hat Musical instrument Saxophone

Clothing Face Shoe Hat Musical instrument

Musical instrument Saxophone Photograph Reed instrument Reed

Seems like he started on a Conn 30m, then Selmer BA, then the Selmer SBA, and finally the super 80 series II.

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sideC

· #47 · Mar 5, 2011

LiAm84, you're probably right. I do see a sba in the pictures. When I joined him in '93, he was playing a mk6 that he had picked up in a shop in Paris. It was in the 180,000 serial range and was a Paris set up horn. He said that, when he saw it at the shop, he just blew the horn out of curiosity and it blew so well that he had to have it. He played this horn on 99% of the gigs I worked with him between '93 and '99.

So I only really saw him with the mk6 and the serie ll. I never saw the early horns. Thanks for the correction, good peeping.

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #48 · Mar 5, 2011

LiAm84 said:
You are right about that picture. It is a BA. But that isn't the horn that Illinois Jacquet played in latter years... for example in the video you posted he is playing a SBA which you can distinguish by the adjustable Gsharp and longer bow compared to a BA. See following picture:

View attachment 26270 View attachment 26271 View attachment 26272

Indeed you're right, those are SBA's (I also have one like that). Seems that even IJ was also regularly in search of something 'extra' in his sound! Thanks for posting.

rleitch

· #49 · Mar 5, 2011

mrpeebee said:
I just ordered one, thanks for posting!

Good move! It's a fantastic record.

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #50 · Mar 14, 2011

Just found another take from this tenor battle of 1979 posted on YouTube:

This time some fragments of a ballad medley, with Dexter, Illinois (can clearly see his Tone Master MPC here!) and the great Budd Johnson.

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #51 · Mar 16, 2011

rleitch said:
Great thread fellas! SideC strikes again!

Maybe this video will finally put to rest all this nonsense about Selmers being special!

R.

ps. I think it's out of print, but it looks like 3 copies of Mr. SideC's cd are on ebay right now. Great chance to snag a great cd!

http://music.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_...odkw=&_osacat=307&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

Just received the disk at home. It's great, really like it

! Thanks again for making me aware of that CD Rory. And Julian, thanks for the great music on this CD, fantastic (bluesy) playing, will enjoy and listen to it for a long long time

.

Peter.

sideC

· #52 · Mar 17, 2011

Thanks Peter! And Rory, thanks again for the plug......good looking out.

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #53 · Mar 22, 2011

mrpeebee said:
Just found another take from this tenor battle of 1979 posted on YouTube:

This time some fragments of a ballad medley, with Dexter, Illinois (can clearly see his Tone Master MPC here!) and the great Budd Johnson.

The ballad feature of Dexter Gordon is now posted completely on YouTube. I made a new SOTW thread with the link:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...-ballad-performance-by-the-late-Dexter-Gordon

EE NYC

· #54 · Apr 7, 2011

mrpeebee said:
I think I found the YouTube video you mentioned above (please correct me if it's not the correct one):

Indeed IJ plays again on the Tone Master, his sound is great on that Selmer Series II. I have that Video at home, but didn't remember the details anymore (getting old!).

Illinois Jacquet! Wow…that's completely amazing. What an unbelievable sound. To hear him up close and playing solo. And to my mind this is a completely modern sound, really. Sure, it's the embodiment of that old school with his inflections and delivery. But the tone itself is as modern as anything out there. Thanks for posting it. I'm inspired!

How's the rest of this film? I'm seriously thinking of getting it…

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #55 · Apr 7, 2011

EE NYC said:
Illinois Jacquet! Wow…that's completely amazing. What an unbelievable sound. To hear him up close and playing solo. And to my mind this is a completely modern sound, really. Sure, it's the embodiment of that old school with his inflections and delivery. But the tone itself is as modern as anything out there. Thanks for posting it. I'm inspired!

How's the rest of this film? I'm seriously thinking of getting it…

I didn't see this video (Texas Tenor: The Illinois Jacquet Story, 1992) for a long time, but I remember I liked it very much (don't remember much details at this moment). I'm a big fan of the Texas Tenor style as played by Arnett Cobb and Illinois Jacquet, so it could be that I view this movie with other 'glasses' then you will do. I think you can find a longer extract of the movie on YouTube, could be this link (can not check it right now, being at work):
- www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZuDnPWSAEE

Also found some (not always positive) reviews of the movie on internet, check these links:
- http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9E0CE5DE103FF933A15752C1A964958260
- http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117901617?refcatid=31

I would buy it if you're really interested in this Texas Tenor style and the person and sound of IJ specifically. But remember, IJ liked to present himself sometimes bigger then he was. As Mr. sideC (who played in his Big Band) pointed out very nicely in post #36 of this thread:

sideC said:
He was not exactly a shrinking violet when it came to the subject of ego.

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EE NYC

· #56 · Apr 7, 2011

Thanks MrPB
Just hearing him play alone on that opening clip is a music lesson in itself. It helps to better understand his sound when we can hear so well the full spectrum of depth and complexity in it.

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #57 · Apr 26, 2011

mrpeebee said:
This is amazing! I just digged up this old cassette recording of that concert and think I just listened to your great alto solo in a very slow blues. It's a tremendous solo, you played some licks from the Jimmy Forrest tune 'Night Train' (which was played after this slow opening blues!). Was that really you? Illinois counted of the tempo with his foot on the wooden floor of the stage. I was always impressed by the way how he always found the perfect tempo of a tune, something like Count Basie also could do. The first alto (Joey C) also played a great feature on 'Willow Weep For Me'. Illinois himself had a great alto feature in 'On The Sunny Side Of The Street'. I have a killing alto solo of him (not of this concert) on that tune where he plays a fantastic high G, on the edge of collapsing, like he also often did on tenor with a high A.

Wow man, some great memories come up now! I remember the concert was much longer then planned, but it also started much later. The band was still doing a sound check while the concert already should have started. The people outside the tent started to be restless. I remember we (my alto buddy and me) where one of the first that forced the back doors of the tent open, to have the best standing spot close to the podium (always on the right of IJ, to be able to see his fingering on the sax). I was always killed by IJ's solo on the 'Blues From Louisiana' and his high screaming notes in that tune (and the short and dry tong slap notes). Also remember whisling softly most of his solo's (knowing most of them by heart from other recordings I have of the band from radio concerts in Laren for TROS Sesjun broadcasting) and the five saxophone chorus feature (I just whistled it again note for note, didn't hear it for years)!

This was a tremendous band, must have been a great experience for you to have been a part of that. One of the most beautiful things of those concerts was to see the faces of the bandmembers when Illinois took a solo. Full of respect and encouraging him with vocal statements. I always had the idea that it must have been like heaven for guys playing in his band, and you where there!

Thanks again for sharing your memories .

I recently found some time to convert some tunes from old cassettes to MP3. One of those numbers is a great solo of Illinois Jacquet on ALTO in a tune called "Bubbles". I have put it on Youtube and created a new thread here on SOTW.

Check this link, in case you're interrested to hear the great bluesy alto sound of IJ:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...of-a-famous-tenor-player-playing-on-alto-HERE

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #58 · May 8, 2011

mrpeebee said:
Just found another take from this tenor battle of 1979 posted on YouTube:

This time some fragments of a ballad medley, with Dexter, Illinois (can clearly see his Tone Master MPC here!) and the great Budd Johnson.

The ballad feature of Budd Johnson is now posted completely on YouTube. I made a new SOTW thread with the link:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...The-late-great-Budd-Johnson-in-Alone-Together

mrpeebee

Discussion Starter · #59 · May 27, 2011

sideC said:
Jacquet told me the story of the mouthpiece he's playing in this vid. Acording to IJ, he and Dexter were working in the Hampton band back in '42. One night they switched mouthpieces, and they both liked the other guys piece better than their own. So they traded pieces. Jacquet used Dexter's mouthpiece on the famous "Flying Home" recording in '42, and that's the one he's playing here. It's an early model Link. He played the piece until it was stolen in '92 or '93, while his horn sat onstage in Switzerland. He replaced it with another Link of similar vintage. Dexter moved on to the more modern model Link mouthpieces.

Mr. sideC, I was just re-reading this great thread and was wondering about this sentence in above post:
"He played the piece until it was stolen in '92 or '93, while his horn sat onstage in Switzerland."

Did you already play in the IJ big band when that happened? If yes, do you remember some more details? Did it happen after the gig or during an intermission? Did IJ play further on a backup (Tone Master) mouthpiece? Just curious how he handled that

!

sideC

· #60 · May 30, 2011

Hi Peter, sorry for my slow responce to your question....been out of town for a week away from my computer.

Yes, this dastardly act of malfeasance occurred before I joined the band. So I admit that my information is just rumors and hearsay evidence. But these are very juicy items of hearsay and rumor.

Seems that a discruntled member of the band set out to exact revenge against IJ, and stealing his beloved mp was his way of getting even. I know that IJ was so shook up when it happened that he cancelled that night's performance. So it occurred in the time period between that day's rehearsal and that night's performance. I don't know what he did to finish the tour, but he was still trying mouthpieces when I joined the band. He played on an old Link without the hump on the back. I guess somebody lent him something, or gave him something to finish the tour on.

He finally settled on another old tone master, and the sound was simply phenomenal to me. But I never got to hear him live on the Dexter mp.

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