Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 61 Posts

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
Joined
·
4,690 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Had a customer bring in a weltklang yesterday, he wants it modified so every touch point is fitted with a teflon bushing, Be that at the ends of a key hinged between two posts or butting up against each other, or the riding of a mechanism.

Tried to talk him out of it, but hes insistent that thats what he wants.

Apart from making some mini punches to stamp pieces out of sheet teflon, does anyone know a supplier that does round teflon bushings
 

·
Forum Contributor 2015, seeker of the knowing of t
Joined
·
4,344 Posts
You used to be able to get round bar stock so you could turn them up.
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
Did you suggest that needle bearings might make it smoother?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW member/, Official SOTW Sister
Joined
·
19,215 Posts
You used to be able to get round bar stock so you could turn them up.
I was just going to ask if it came in rod stock.
It seems like it would be easier to slice off whatever thickness you needed and punch a hole in the center.
Either way still sounds VERY time consuming.
If I lived near by I would be happy to do some of the slicing/punching. I'm good at busy work.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Columnist/Official SOTW Guru
Joined
·
3,764 Posts
I got $10 bucks says you go to a lot of effort and within 6 months he's back to have them removed.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2014
Joined
·
4,315 Posts
LOL yeah that sounds like a LOT of busy work....thats a little ridiculous to me...I mean horns have been playing great since the 20s, and yes there are always improvements, but some stuff is over the top...to me thats like the super cars that lift when started and sit down when not in use....I dont see the point....better yet the Bentley that has a built in jack on every wheel.....if you can afford a Bentley you should have roadside assistance.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Technician
Joined
·
3,112 Posts
Having worked on saxes that drop loads of brass shims used to take up end play when the rod screws are removed, I can see this is definitely going to be a nightmare for you. And hardly even worth the effort on a Weltklang as you can't polish a ****! Tell him you'll swage the keys in the usual manner to make them fit properly and if he's not happy, then he can find someone else to do this or quote him an astronomical price as it will be expensive in materials and your own time to make these modifications if using teflon rod. No-one will be prepared to do this sort of thing on this kind of sax.

No offence to any Weltklang owners out there, but they're hardly worth the extra special effort to get things all snug when there's plenty of other things that more urgently need addressing with them but are far too uneconomical to even consider undertaking. I admit I overhauled a Weltklang tenor last year, but it needed so much doing to it before I could even consider putting the pads in - and even when it was finished I don't think it was worth all the time, effort or money spent on it.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
Joined
·
4,690 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Thanks guys, time is money and I spent way to much time yesterday trying to talk him out of it. In the end I went a stupid price in my opinion and his response was a yes. Ive also got a large time window (month) to do it in as I showed him my currect workload

So the customer is getting what the customer wants. My views had been expressed etc but to no avail. I guess Ill just make a set of mini punches and punch them out of sheet teflon.

Dont know whether yet I want to dress the keys down to fit teflons to the ends, or countersink the posts on the inside and insert the teflon into the post for that neat look.
 

·
Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
Joined
·
3,314 Posts
Well as long as you priced it high enough to make you happy doing the work, sounds like a win-win. Let us know how it goes. Countersinking sounds like a good idea, otherwise its just washers. I see a lot of hinge tube facing in your future.

Should be (ahem) pretty slick.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Technician
Joined
·
3,112 Posts
Remember these saxes use nickel silver rod screws fairly extensively - plus side being they won't rust but the downside is they often get mashed up by previous DIY attempts to remove them using ill-fitting screwdrivers or over-torquing/cross threading them so the threads strip, or a combination of both.

I'd play safe and fraise back the hinge tubing rather than countersinking the pillars.

What is his reasoning/reckoning behind having teflon shims fitted throughout?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
Joined
·
4,690 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Just wants the teflon, the net has told him it will be so much faster and smoother, Ive explained the pros and cons and really the advantages gained IMO will be very little, but he wants it so Ill pull it down this afternoon and get it started

Matt - Hinge key dressing is dead easy, I think having seen some recent photos that maybe a discussion should be started on how to file. I know my guys who have not come from a mechanical background find it exceptionally difficult to file a hinge tube squarely
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Columnist/Official SOTW Guru
Joined
·
3,764 Posts
That would be a great tutorial Steve. I reckon learning to hand file properly is one of the hardest but most important hand skills. All the old timers seem to have the knack. Perhaps because they had to learn hand tool skills back then.
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
Just wants the teflon, the net has told him it will be so much faster and smoother, Ive explained the pros and cons and really the advantages gained IMO will be very little, but he wants it so Ill pull it down this afternoon and get it started
I take it you didn't like my idea of convincing him to use needle bearings. MUCH smoother and faster, and OBTW, if they have deep pockets, much more rewarding financially for the tech. :)
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009
Joined
·
4,507 Posts
I've done crazy teflon bearing stuff and I can tell you... it's NOT worth the hassle. Teflon's super for sliding articulation points but not really a good bearing surface one against another.

I can provide pictures of the special tooling I made for this crazy stuff (tomorrow when I get to the shop) but in the meantime, since we're all mechanics, picture a valve spring retainer without the lock. The hinge screw would be the valve stem. The hinge tubing would be the actual valve spring. I overbored the hinge tubing to 4mm so it wouldn't touch the hinge screw rod. Then turned a countersink with a pilot to produce a countersink on each hinge tubing end. Then turned the "valve retainers" out of teflon rod stock, placed one on each end of each key hinge tubing, packing it with ceramic grease. The hinge tubing on each stack keys rode on those "retainers" and it was packed with ultra quality lubricant in the middle, reducing the friction as much as you can possible can without resourcing to needle or radial ball bearings. The action was super slick, but here's the deal: PTFE's and other similar slick plastics are pressure sensitive. Each time you move the teflon bearing radially it will deform a little. I removed every teflon things on the experimental horn and replaced the hinge rod with hard cobalt alloy toolsteel and turned the bearings out of high lead and berilium content bearing bronze stock. Action was WAY more solid and quiet and fast, not to mention, reliable over time.

Other crazy mechs I've tried on another experimental horn (an old bari) was turning the stack more or less into a valvetrain rocker fashion. I kept both ends of the hinge rod "normal" (the threaded end and the slotted end) and reamed them posts to accept bushings, in addition to replace the hinge tubing on every stack key with a 7mm OD tubing in order to acomodate thicker walled bearings and have more room for countersinking and all. So all the keys are floating tight one against another, yet supported by the middle posts. I'm waiting to have some time and money to buy some tooling and fab other tooling in order to mill more or less like a girdle for the stacks, effectively securing everything with floating busings in between (sort as if you could rearrange the middle posts in a stack row)

Also I got to play with a couple of really small radial action ball bearings from a dentists' air motor bearings, they are tiny but not enough for alto and tenor. they can be used on baritones... low C# on buescher TT from a customer got this mod. 2 bearings of that kind costs a small fortune... but we could get the pad to seal bulletproofly tight using a 1.35mm OD x 75mm long needle spring.

My point being, leave the teflon and other plastics for the regulation on mechanics this small, except maybe for roller linkages, or other mechanisms where you have combined radial and axial forces applied, causing harder materials to rattle, squeak, click or hit. Stack and pivot keys (any key that has no combined planes of action or slide to them without the interaction of a middle lever, cantilever or rocker) are better with hard metal/softer metal/lube configuration.
 

·
Forum Contributor 2015, seeker of the knowing of t
Joined
·
4,344 Posts
That would be a great tutorial Steve. I reckon learning to hand file properly is one of the hardest but most important hand skills. All the old timers seem to have the knack. Perhaps because they had to learn hand tool skills back then.
When I started my apprenticeship I did nothing but file for the first 3 months. I hated it. It was one of the best things I've been through.

Wax On Wax Off
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
Joined
·
4,690 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Neil, Thanks for the link didnt even know JL Smith sold them, definelty will make it a bit easier. Order going through

Juan, would love to see some pics if you have them mate, you make sense regarding the fact that the teflon will deform, I actually had not even considered that point,

Saxpunter, yep same, best thing ever was learning to file, we had to make a small tool makers vice by hand as part of our apprenticeship, the vice could only be made with files and a T square and bearing blue. The pass fail was for every side that was not """perfectly flat "" you lost a mark, for every side that was not perfectly 90 degrees to the other side you lost a mark, They would check flatness and squareness with a ruler and a t square held up to the light. In a vice theres a lot of sides that need to be flat and square, the base the jaws the cradle the handle etc
 
1 - 20 of 61 Posts
Top