The pad at "C" could be sticking (especially if your girlfriend is really sweet), or the octave key rod that extends above the body is not touching the octave key on the sax neck. You could test the latter by holding that rod down, press the G key and the octave key and see if "c" (in your diagram) opens. If "c" opens, then the problem is the space between the octave key on neck and the rod that activates it. Use key oil on the pivot points, because this mechanism really just uses the spring on the neck to activate it
Techy question about Octave key operation failure......
Hi,
My girlfriend plays a Ref 54 Tenor and the Octave key has stopped working when the 'G' key is pressed (please excuse me I am completely non musical, but fairly technical!) Now I have had a look to see how this mechanism works and it looks like a joint is rotating when it should be in a fixed position.
What we want to know is this....is this something that could be put down to fair wear and tear, or is it something that should not fail in the first 11 months of use (she is an advanced beginner and plays approx 10 hours per week). She has rung the suppliers and they have said 'oh it's something that happens to beginners! We feel we may have a fight on our hands regarding a warranty case.
Now please bear in mind that I know nothing about the mechanics of the tenor sax or any sax for that matter, but having looked at the mech I believe it works in this way (looking at the picture...)
The octave key when pressed, causes lever 'A' to move towards the body of the sax, this in turn causes lever 'B' to move away from the body due to the pivot point being fixed. This works fine, now when the 'G' key is pressed in conjunction with the octave key, lever 'A' moves towards the body of the sax, but lever 'B' stays in place because the pivot point is now rotating with lever 'A' because the 'G' lever has moved away from the key by it.
I believe the fault to be in the pivot point rotating on the rod adjacent to it rather than staying still? Is this correct. Or is it that the 'G' key's cork has worn away and is also out of adjustment and causing the pad 'C' to open too far?
The ultimate reason for asking this question is.
1. My GF thinks it's a warranty case and want's to go to the supplying shop to get it fixed for free. Trouble is they are a 1.5 hour drive away and will cost about £20 in petrol and I feel they are gonna say it's wear and tear anyways and charge us for the fix. So I think she should take it to the local tech who is reputable and pay anyways and save the petrol!!!! So is it a faulty part, or is this something to be expected given the use of the sax?
Thanks in advance and sorry for droning on and on!!!
Here is the picture of the mech.....
![]()
My girlfriend plays a Ref 54 Tenor and the Octave key has stopped working when the 'G' key is pressed (please excuse me I am completely non musical, but fairly technical!) Now I have had a look to see how this mechanism works and it looks like a joint is rotating when it should be in a fixed position.
What we want to know is this....is this something that could be put down to fair wear and tear, or is it something that should not fail in the first 11 months of use (she is an advanced beginner and plays approx 10 hours per week). She has rung the suppliers and they have said 'oh it's something that happens to beginners! We feel we may have a fight on our hands regarding a warranty case.
Now please bear in mind that I know nothing about the mechanics of the tenor sax or any sax for that matter, but having looked at the mech I believe it works in this way (looking at the picture...)
The octave key when pressed, causes lever 'A' to move towards the body of the sax, this in turn causes lever 'B' to move away from the body due to the pivot point being fixed. This works fine, now when the 'G' key is pressed in conjunction with the octave key, lever 'A' moves towards the body of the sax, but lever 'B' stays in place because the pivot point is now rotating with lever 'A' because the 'G' lever has moved away from the key by it.
I believe the fault to be in the pivot point rotating on the rod adjacent to it rather than staying still? Is this correct. Or is it that the 'G' key's cork has worn away and is also out of adjustment and causing the pad 'C' to open too far?
The ultimate reason for asking this question is.
1. My GF thinks it's a warranty case and want's to go to the supplying shop to get it fixed for free. Trouble is they are a 1.5 hour drive away and will cost about £20 in petrol and I feel they are gonna say it's wear and tear anyways and charge us for the fix. So I think she should take it to the local tech who is reputable and pay anyways and save the petrol!!!! So is it a faulty part, or is this something to be expected given the use of the sax?
Thanks in advance and sorry for droning on and on!!!
Here is the picture of the mech.....
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Edit, May 10 2007. The photo in Post 1 that the following refers to has vanished, so I have taken the liberty of reproducing the photo here in this post.
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Sorry, Nitram, but there is a lot in your opening post where I do not understand you...
In particular, you write, "I believe the fault to be in the pivot point rotating on the rod adjacent to it rather than staying still?"
The item you marked "pivot", consists of a hinge for a seesaw-like arm that has a ball shape at each end, engaging with "A" and "B". The short stump of a rod inside this hinge should be silver-soldered integral with both "C", and integral with a length of hinge tube that rotates on the long steel shaft. I think it is most unlikely that you have a faulty (like broken) part, but there may well be a binding pivot, or too much friction in one of the several linkages.
For diagnosis:In particular, you write, "I believe the fault to be in the pivot point rotating on the rod adjacent to it rather than staying still?"
The item you marked "pivot", consists of a hinge for a seesaw-like arm that has a ball shape at each end, engaging with "A" and "B". The short stump of a rod inside this hinge should be silver-soldered integral with both "C", and integral with a length of hinge tube that rotates on the long steel shaft. I think it is most unlikely that you have a faulty (like broken) part, but there may well be a binding pivot, or too much friction in one of the several linkages.
- The neck key should move freely, under the action of its spring. The spring should fully close the pad, leak-free.
- With the neck removed, press down both the thumb key and the G key. Then with the other hand, try moving the lever that would normally link to the neck key. This lever should operate, over its FULL range of movement, with ZERO discernible resistance. If there is any resistance, then identify the cause - where the binding is taking place. This may well involve removing the long steel pivot rod and checking each part , and then the operation of each linkage on it, independently. I recommend that if you do this, you remove the G key and the thumb key first, to facilitate re-assembly to the instrument. I also recommend identifying which way around that see-saw goes so that it can be returned the same way.
- With the instrument assembled, and no keys pressed, there should be a tiny gap between the neck key and the arm that operates it. It could be say from 0.1 mm to 1 mm, as long as it is there. (Note that through poor shape of the neck key, it may well vanish when the neck is swivelled to a different position, so a larger rather than smaller gap may be appropriate, unless you correct the shape of the arm.) Methods to increase or decrease that gap include bending the neck key.
- Now press just the thumb lever. The neck vent should open, say 2 - 4 mm. The body vent should remain securely closed.
- (i.e. in the photo, "C" is held secure by the G key. "A" is pressed down, so that the sea-saw pivots about its secure centre, lifting "B", hence operating the neck key.
- Now press the G key as well. This releases "C", so that the neck key spring can now close the neck vent, while also lowering B against no resistance (as per "2" above). Because the position of "A" is fixed, the lowering of "B" also lowers what you named "pivot", which in turn makes "C" lift.
- Important: For this last operation to fully occur, "G" must lift sufficiently high to leave a gap (no matter how small) between "G" and "C". If not, then there are several adjustment options which include:
- bend neck key or the linkage to it, or alter cork thickness under the thumb key, to allow the neck vent to open less in test 4.
- bend to alter the geometry between "C" and "pivot", (or the sea-saw itself - less recommended), which would have the same effect in reducing the opening of the neck key.
- reduce the thickness of the CENTRE of the length of cork on the G key, so that the cork clears "C", without affecting how far the G key opens, which typically involves the end of the strip of cork.
- Reduce the thickness of the cork on the G key, so that it clears "C", and ALSO allows the G key to open further.
- Bend the lever of the G key (or twist the G key over its whole length), to allow the G key to open further.
The choice remains with the technician, considering the various repercussions.
Thanks for all the replies guy's, most informative, I've got it in my head how the mech works now. When I first looked at a sax from the mechanics point of view it looked like the work of the devil :shock:
The sax hasn't been looked at for the 11 months that she has owned it, so it's most probably due a service/looking at anyways. How often should a sax be serviced? Yearly, six monthly, I suppose it all depends upon the amount they are played.
I got it out of her that one of the real reasons she want's to go back to the shop is to try out other instruments/crooks and that getting the sax looked at was almost a secondary consideration!!!! Women and shopping huh
The sax hasn't been looked at for the 11 months that she has owned it, so it's most probably due a service/looking at anyways. How often should a sax be serviced? Yearly, six monthly, I suppose it all depends upon the amount they are played.
I got it out of her that one of the real reasons she want's to go back to the shop is to try out other instruments/crooks and that getting the sax looked at was almost a secondary consideration!!!! Women and shopping huh
O.K I've got home now and just watched the mechanisms whilst my GF is playing (I am also temporarily deaf, them 54's are flippin' loud!! ). The mechanisms look like they are working correctly.......to a point.
When she plays a note and has the thumb octave key pressed the note changes correctly, then when she presses the 'G' key, the octave pad on the neck/crook closes correctly and the body octave pad opens and the note changes, then when she let's go of the thumb key, the neck pad closes but the note doesn't change. This to me would indicate a leak? Would this be because the spring on the thumb key is out of adjustment?
Thanks again for any and all assistance given
When she plays a note and has the thumb octave key pressed the note changes correctly, then when she presses the 'G' key, the octave pad on the neck/crook closes correctly and the body octave pad opens and the note changes, then when she let's go of the thumb key, the neck pad closes but the note doesn't change. This to me would indicate a leak? Would this be because the spring on the thumb key is out of adjustment?
Thanks again for any and all assistance given
The neck octave is open from A up. Left thumb pressed. Then play G, neck octave closes, body octave opens. Then release left thumb, body octave closes. Now if the played G does not come down one octave and the body octave key did close (Check if it really closes well), start kissing your GF a lot and tender because there is to much pressure with her embouchure and she's actually playing one octave up without using octave keys.
If that is it, man you can do the tech work yourselve, not sure Gordon had this kind of repairs yet
If that is it, man you can do the tech work yourselve, not sure Gordon had this kind of repairs yet
Her embouchure is likely too tight.nitram_tpr said:O.K I've got home now and just watched the mechanisms whilst my GF is playing (I am also temporarily deaf, them 54's are flippin' loud!! ). The mechanisms look like they are working correctly.......to a point.
When she plays a note and has the thumb octave key pressed the note changes correctly, then when she presses the 'G' key, the octave pad on the neck/crook closes correctly and the body octave pad opens and the note changes, then when she let's go of the thumb key, the neck pad closes but the note doesn't change. This to me would indicate a leak? Would this be because the spring on the thumb key is out of adjustment?
Thanks again for any and all assistance given
The problem can be that there is too much friction between the neck key and the arm that operates it. A tiny trace of cork grease (or nose grease can solve it. This is more likely if htere is a plastic tube sleeve over the lever.
Otherwise it is likely to be too much friction in another part of the mechanism, or a spring insufficiently tensioned to overcome the strength of another spring.
can solve it. This is more likely if htere is a plastic tube sleeve over the lever.Otherwise it is likely to be too much friction in another part of the mechanism, or a spring insufficiently tensioned to overcome the strength of another spring.
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