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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

I'm trying to explore some superimposition techniques, from de basis. Can you help me with some books that i should check out than explain (with some theoretic knowledge) how to develop this technique, starting with simple stuff?

Thanks a lot
 

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SaxTMan, lots of books talk about it, but they don't always call it superimposition. I think David Liebman uses the term and has a play a long CD with Aebersold that goes over it. I think Bergonzi talks about it in his books too. Also Mark Levine talks about it, particularly in talking about 'upper structures'.

Really, the best way to start thinking about it is to consider the given chord all the way up through the 13th, then start building chords up from different roots and determine which notes may ormay not be consonant with the original chord.

For example, if we're in G and you see a G chord, think of it as a G Maj7,then a G Maj9, G Maj13. If you start building the chord off of B you can re-interpret it as a B-7, B-9, B-11, B-b13. Some chords will make sense, some won't. The tricky part is to sift out the ones that make sense and sound good and modify the ones that don't to make them sound good.

Chords functioning as tonics are difficult to find good superimpositions for. Chords functioning as Dominants are fertile ground and lots of triads and seventh chords will sound good over V7.

Try some different things out and see what you come up with.
 

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"Superimposition" - being really irritating by asking for far more than a person is willing to do.

"Superposition" - placing one chord atop another.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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Dr G;1743774 - placing one chord atop another.[/QUOTE said:
I can see why that can be useful for pianist and (especially) guitarists, but I do struggle to se how it is useful for playing the saxophone. Surely it's better to just learn the extensions and alterations?
 

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Bergonzi - Melodic Structures, among other things.

Hal Galper's book Forward Motion speaks to your question, Pete. I don't have it in front of me, but he talks about using superimpositions for playing tensions and more dissonant material, but keeping it related to a structure with its own integrity.
 

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Hal Galper's book Forward Motion speaks to your question, Pete. I don't have it in front of me, but he talks about using superimpositions for playing tensions and more dissonant material, but keeping it related to a structure with its own integrity.
Thanks, I like Hal Galper.

But i still wonder how superimposing chords has any advantage over just knowing the advanced harmony that would come to the same thing. But maybe I need to read that book before speculating further.

Bringing it down to a more basic level, and a practical example, say you have a D7 superimposed on a C7, isn't it better to just think of that as a C13 #11 ?
 

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Thanks, I like Hal Galper.

...Bringing it down to a more basic level, and a practical example, say you have a D7 superimposed on a C7, isn't it better to just think of that as a C13 #11 ?
Yes, but 'thinking' D7 requires fewer 'bits' of information and is more accessible as a result. Also the D7 arpeggio sounds much different than a C13#11 scale.
 

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Thanks, I like Hal Galper.

But i still wonder how superimposing chords has any advantage over just knowing the advanced harmony that would come to the same thing. But maybe I need to read that book before speculating further.

Bringing it down to a more basic level, and a practical example, say you have a D7 superimposed on a C7, isn't it better to just think of that as a C13 #11 ?
I've always felt everybody's pretty much talking about the same thing 100 different ways with tensions. If we're talking about comping, I think I'm more in your camp. If we're talking about soloing, I think the point is to give the soloist a way to organize their playing of the tensions, and make thinking about it less haphazard.

Using your example, to emphasize the 13 and #11 on C7 (or superimposed D7 if you like), you could utilize a tetrachord [D E F# A] to bring out those tensions. Working too much in tetrachords (and permutations, i.e. Bergonzi book 1) might lead you to sounding repetitive, but they do have a certain structural strength, which might be missing in the playing of someone (especially a student) just "going for the tensions".
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Wow I've asked for the second time, and i didn't expected so many replies. So thank you for that.

Ok, superimposition is impose melodic or rhythmic ideias over something. In this case melodic material with a 'different' key center(?) over a given progression. Maybe my explanation is theoretically with some mistakes...anyway, yes, it is related with upper structures like Dr G pointed very well. But it's not only abou upper structures, there are other ways. This is very explored by harmonic instruments when real time reharmonazing, but it can be explored melodic. Coltrane did it, many others also did.

hgiles, thank you for your input. I do think that book is somewhat complicated. I was searching for more simple stuff, for now.
 

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Yes, really. Believe it or not, both words mean the same thing. But I've always heard people use superimpose rather than superpose.

In fact, one of the definitions thefreedictionary.com com has for superpose is "a rare word for superimpose".
 

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Bringing it down to a more basic level, and a practical example, say you have a D7 superimposed on a C7, isn't it better to just think of that as a C13 #11 ?
1) If you think D (you'd more than likely to think of a triad rather than a 7th chord), you're more likely to emphasize the 9th, #11th, and 13th. If you think C13#11, what chord tones are you going to be drawn to? Still probably the root, 3rd, and 5th more often than not. And even if not, you're more likely to play those basic chord tones than if you were only thinking D major triad.

And when you're playing with altered extensions, all you might play over a chord may be a triad. It sounds hip. I often play an augmented triad based off of the b7 of a dominant chord because it gives me the b7, 9, and #11. It's a hip sound and I don't need to play anything else but that triad.

Also, as I said in another thread where you posed a similar question, if you think of something a different way, you're likely going to get different results. If you think of a chord a C9sus, you're going to play it differently than if you think G-7/C. Same chord tones, but you think of it differently and play different lines.

2) For a lot of people, it's faster to think "Major triad a step up from the root" than to try to figure out what the 9th, #11th, and natural 13th are. It's a shortcut.

I often times play a minor 12356 pentatonic a half step up from the root of a dominant chord in order to get the altered sound. For me, it's easier than trying playing the altered scale or trying to think of the b9, #9, #11, and b13 are.

Superimposing chords is a quick and easy way to get a particular sound by isolating and emphasizing the notes that create that sound.
 

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1) If you think D (you'd more than likely to think of a triad rather than a 7th chord), you're more likely to emphasize the 9th, #11th, and 13th. If you think C13#11, what chord tones are you going to be drawn to? Still probably the root, 3rd, and 5th more often than not. And even if not, you're more likely to play those basic chord tones than if you were only thinking D major triad.

And when you're playing with altered extensions, all you might play over a chord may be a triad. It sounds hip. I often play an augmented triad based off of the b7 of a dominant chord because it gives me the b7, 9, and #11. It's a hip sound and I don't need to play anything else but that triad.

Also, as I said in another thread where you posed a similar question, if you think of something a different way, you're likely going to get different results. If you think of a chord a C9sus, you're going to play it differently than if you think G-7/C. Same chord tones, but you think of it differently and play different lines.

2) For a lot of people, it's faster to think "Major triad a step up from the root" than to try to figure out what the 9th, #11th, and natural 13th are. It's a shortcut.

I often times play a minor 12356 pentatonic a half step up from the root of a dominant chord in order to get the altered sound. For me, it's easier than trying playing the altered scale or trying to think of the b9, #9, #11, and b13 are.

Superimposing chords is a quick and easy way to get a particular sound by isolating and emphasizing the notes that create that sound.
Good post Agent27! You hear anecdotal evidence that the masters think this way too:

"It's more about the notes you don't play!" - Miles Davis
"I don't play as many notes now because I learned which ones were important." - Dizzy Gillespie
 
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