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Discussion Starter #1
Very little out there about these. Has anyone here owned one and can share experience with how these horns play?

How does the action hold up against that of the tenor?
How does the tone hold up to other great Bb baris? (I'm thinking 12M, Comm III, or your choice of others)
Intonation?

I'm closing in on one but a pretty blind purchase since I won't get to hold or play it and can't find much about these online. My guess is they would be fabulous but that's as much hope as guess...

Thanks:)
-m
 

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TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
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It is the regular King baritone of the time with visual cues to link it to the tenor/alto, like the hand-made brass wire key guards. Some even had a silver neck but I don't know if any were Silversonics although that would be something to see!
 

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I've owned Super 20 altos and tenors as well as Zephyr altos and tenors -- never played a Zephyr or Super 20 Bari .

I have been in the room with a guy who was playing one(Jason Marshall) and it sounded pretty good to me, so I wouldn't
be afraid to try one if I was looking for that model .
 

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Nice baris, I've sold a few of them. The last one was a true beater bari, it had a war ravaged look but it was a solid working horn cheap. The guy who bought it, an active local tenor player, fell in love with it and switched to bari primarily as a result. He still has it and went out and bought another in cleaner shape and uses both. Solid horns.
 

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21 years ago I drove to Atlanta to buy a Conn 12M. The owner of the shop told me that I should at least try out this Super 20 bari he also had, I fell i love with the Super 20 and haven't looked back. It the best sounding and playing bari I've ever owned.
 

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21 years ago I drove to Atlanta to buy a Conn 12M. The owner of the shop told me that I should at least try out this Super 20 bari he also had, I fell i love with the Super 20 and haven't looked back. It the best sounding and playing bari I've ever owned.
Was it Charles Fail's shop ?

I bought my first Super 20 tenor from him, although I think that was in Marietta, Ga actually ..
 

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21 years ago I drove to Atlanta to buy a Conn 12M. The owner of the shop told me that I should at least try out this Super 20 bari he also had, I fell i love with the Super 20 and haven't looked back. It the best sounding and playing bari I've ever owned.
Mike got me the part my Super 20 bari was missing so I could get it playing again. I don't think he knows how much I appreciated him getting me that needle in a haystack! My bari really needs an overhaul, but sounds pretty good as is :)
 

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Was it Charles Fail's shop ?

I bought my first Super 20 tenor from him, although I think that was in Marietta, Ga actually ..
Yes it was Charles Fail, you are correct, I've seen some listings that said Kennesaw and others that said Marietta. Miss his business, I also bought a Conn 6M from him as well as my Selmer USA bass clarinet.
 

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Mike got me the part my Super 20 bari was missing so I could get it playing again. I don't think he knows how much I appreciated him getting me that needle in a haystack! My bari really needs an overhaul, but sounds pretty good as is :)
How nice that you remembered that high F key, that junker bari I bought sure came in handy, the F key went to you, the neck to another S20 bari, and the high D key to a Zephyr bari so that bari as an "organ doner" returned 3 bari's to playing condition.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
21 years ago I drove to Atlanta to buy a Conn 12M. The owner of the shop told me that I should at least try out this Super 20 bari he also had, I fell i love with the Super 20 and haven't looked back. It the best sounding and playing bari I've ever owned.
That's what I want to hear:)
 

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Yes it was Charles Fail, you are correct, I've seen some listings that said Kennesaw and others that said Marietta. Miss his business, I also bought a Conn 6M from him as well as my Selmer USA bass clarinet.
I bought a Super 20 alto from Charles, also. Was thinking I bought the alto from Joe Sax but it was in fact Charles .
I later _sold_ the alto to Joe Sax when I needed quick cash to pursue a Selmer Paris Bass clarinet .. this was probably 20 years ago.

Anyway, Charles was great to deal with. I bought both those horns without playing them first as I had complete faith in his
abilities, and was not disappointed. I'd like to try a Super 20 Bari when the right one comes along .
 

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I bought my 1957 Mark VI tenor from Charles. It's not a pretty horn, but it plays and sounds really great. If you bought a horn from him he'd do overhauls and so on for you, excellent work. Charles was an antique radio hobbyist too, he had a house that he used exclusively for storage of them all. I bought a matched set 1942 Zenith floor and tombstone from him; he'd take them apart, send the cabinet to one guy to restore and the works to another guy to restore, all NOS parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Can anyone compare an S20 bari to a pre-S20 Zephyr? Was the keywork much improved, or much the same? I love the light, quick touch of my S20 tenor...
 

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Can anyone compare an S20 bari to a pre-S20 Zephyr? Was the keywork much improved, or much the same? I love the light, quick touch of my S20 tenor...
I have played one Super 20 bari. As i recall, an acquaintance offered to let me try his S20 on a gig like 10 years ago. I was impressed with the left hand table which was a bit lighter/faster than either of the Zephyrs that I had at the time (an early Eastlake and an '35 Art Deco). I'm not 100% certain but I think S20s have the linked G# which Zephyrs never did to my knowledge.
FYI. I still have the '35 but I sold the Eastlake to a friend. The Eastlake Zephyr bari took so little air to sound it was uncanny. Don't remember if that was true of the S20.
 

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I've played the King Super 20 bari. I love the King tenors, I have 2 a Silversonic from the Cleveland era and a silver Super 20 from eastlake-an early eastlake, but the bari didn't feel as comfortable in my hands, which are large. I felt the pinky Eb very troublesome and the palm keys too close. However the sound is killer and I am still trying to find a way to buy the horn and alter the keyword slightly. it's a nicely made horn with a huge sound

No experience with the Zephyr
 

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I have played the Super 20 a couple of times and I thought it was very comparable to my Conn 12M (which is one of the very best of that model); big sound, flexible, easy to play. The keywork was different enough from the Conn that I missed a couple low notes going for keys where I thought they were but they weren't, but that's just a matter of adaptation. I didn't have enough time on the horn to consider whether I thought it was sonically the same as a Zephyr (about which see below).

I played a considerable amount on a Zephyr bari in high school and college, and I've taken turns on some friends' Zephyr baritones since. I really really like these. The sound one could almost describe as "creamy" compared to the harder edged Conn sound. Only thing is, no front high F (I don't know, they might have added this near the end of the run).

If a low Bb bari will work for you, you wouldn't go wrong in my opinion with a King baritone whether Zephyr or Super 20. (I have a suspicion that the basic acoustical design is probably exactly the same between these two, with just some minor keywork changes to make the Super 20; but cannot base this suspicion on anything real.)
 

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The S20 baritone has much better ergonomics than the Zephyr model. If also has a front f key that the Zep didn't have. I had a Zephyr baritone that I absolutely loved the sound of but I ditched it in favor of a low Bb Keilwerth from the Couf era. I play in a swing band with a bari player that uses a Zephyr. He is fine with it.
 

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Only thing is, no front high F (I don't know, they might have added this near the end of the run).
This Cleveland horn has a front F. Any idea how early yours was? There's just so little info out there about these, who knows how they evolved over the years.

View attachment 235202
 

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This Cleveland horn has a front F. Any idea how early yours was? There's just so little info out there about these, who knows how they evolved over the years.

View attachment 235202
Ah jeez, I have no idea, it was a school horn and that was 40+ years ago. I only remember it had the little lock nuts on the adjustment screws and the engraving said "King Zephyr Made By H.N. Whit Co., Cleveland, O." Note the missing "E" which I distinctly remember from all those years ago.
 

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Ah jeez, I have no idea, it was a school horn and that was 40+ years ago. I only remember it had the little lock nuts on the adjustment screws and the engraving said "King Zephyr Made By H.N. Whit Co., Cleveland, O." Note the missing "E" which I distinctly remember from all those years ago.
Ohhhh I thought you were talking about a S20, it was the Zeph you said didn't have a front F. The one pictured is a S20. Maybe some day I'll have one of each on my bench to see how different they really are.
 
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