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Many people like to hear the major 3rd as a chromatic approach from above to the minor third of the minor chord,
I'd really love to know who these people are.

Actually no, don't send me their address and phone no.

I just wish people liked my wrong notes.
 

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I think probably the idea should be as follows .... a IIm7 is frequently followed by a V7 going to the I, and then you can play the dim hw scale off the V over both chords (IIm7 and V7), and I've been doing it recently, just running the scale fast. Sounds good. This is pretty much standard practice I think. You can also play a whole tone scale off the III over both chords, I've been doing this too, sounds good ! And, I think it's a good way to start expanding your aural concept.
 

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George Garzone told me "You can play anything over anything. just play it with conviction!" It sounds crazy but it's those times on a gig where I play some random thing over a chord that other musicians will ask me about after. You could play a diminished pattern over minor with conviction and attitude and it won't even really make sense on paper but after some kid is asking what the heck you were playing at that moment. You tell them a diminished scale and then they will play a diminished scale on every minor chord they see.
 

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The distinction between a tonic function dom7#9 and a min7 has been blurred for many years, for sure. Most funk and soul charts which stay on I dom7#9 for awhile use the Dorian mode for the melody and harmony of say, the horn parts, as well as the main melody. Often the only instrument playing the dom7#9 is the rhythm guitar. Even keyboards and organ are riffing primarily Dorian.
I see what you're saying, but just for the sake of argument (why not?) and also for technical accuracy (which may or may not be important, I guess), the dom7#9 chord is still a dominant chord, not minor, and the major 3rd is still there and can be played. I think what's happening on those funk and soul tunes you mention is the same thing that happens on a lot of blues tunes, even the ones with 'standard' dom7 chords without the #9. The maj3rd can be played as a b3rd in the melody line or a riff and sound just fine. It's a blue note. You can play a minor pentatonic, a minor blues scale, or dorian, and that might be quite common, but you aren't limited to that and you can incorporate the actual chord tones: 1 3 5 b7 #9, including that maj3rd tone.

However, back to minor chords, if you really are dealing with a minor 7 chord, the maj 3rd will sound very bad in most cases, except as a passing tone on an upbeat. And even then, I'd treat it very carefully.
 

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I don't disagree with you, but if you are playing a modal tune with several bars of of d minor and the d dim. scale sounds interesting over it, what's the harm?
lutemann, I think Pete was responding to your statement regarding Dm7 & D7alt, which are different chords, with different functions. Take a look at my post #65 just above, which I think addresses a similar issue (min7 vs Dom7#9).
 

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I'd really love to know who these people are.

Actually no, don't send me their address and phone no.

I just wish people liked my wrong notes.
Pete, I do apologize. Of course I stated that incorrectly. The minor 3rd is approached from a half-step from the b4, not the major 3rd! My contention is that any chord tone (or extension for that matter) can be approached from a half-step above, and these are active tones, as opposed to the passive approach from a half-step below. Of course, we have all learned as part of the standard chord scale dogma that one never plays a natural 5th on a half diminished chord, and God forbid one should play a major 3rd over minor! But my suggestion is to try some of these sounds. If you can't hear it, or just don't like it, then that's the way it is. But I think it's part of extending the vocabulary, so that we're not stuck in cliches.
 

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Pete, I do apologize. Of course I stated that incorrectly. The minor 3rd is approached from a half-step from the b4, not the major 3rd! My contention is that any chord tone (or extension for that matter) can be approached from a half-step above, and these are active tones, as opposed to the passive approach from a half-step below.
Yes, but there are loads of notes that can be used if it's an approach note or a passing note. This is the big problem with saying such and such scale fits a given chord. People learn those associations, without knowing the functions of each note, whether it's a chord tone, passing note or whatever. And how each note has a different implication depending on it's placing in time (on the beat, off the beat etc.)

EDIT:

e.g. a major 3rd on a minor chord can be fine:

Eb E F E Eb C on C minor (though you could make the second E and Fb)

I haven't heard the term active tones.
 

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Yes, but there are loads of notes that can be used if it's an approach note or a passing note. This is the big problem with saying such and such scale fits a given chord. People learn those associations, without knowing the functions of each note, whether it's a chord tone, passing note or whatever. And how each note has a different implication depending on it's placing in time (on the beat, off the beat etc.)

EDIT:

e.g. a major 3rd on a minor chord can be fine:

Eb E F E Eb C on C minor (though you could make the second E and Fb)

I haven't heard the term active tones.
Actually, I'm not talking about chromatic passing tones; consecutive chromatics tend to lose the power of pointed half-step motions (rounding them off, so to speak). Escape tones increase their effect, even the effect of the approach from a half-step below (which I call passive). Think about the #4 to 5 resolution. If you play (over major) 3 4 #4 5, you've got a smooth, pretty line that makes sense to everyone. If you hang on #4 for a bit before moving to 5, you have a well-liked tension/resolution. If you first move from #4 up to 1, then back down to 5, you have more angularity and interest.

With active tones I'm referring to resolutions such as 4 to 3, b6 to 5, and b2 to 1, Those are the familiar ones, often called tendency tones. Basically I conceive of all approaches from a note from a half-step above a chord tone or extension as an active tone. That means if the chord player is really laying into the #11 on a dom13#11 and you play a natural 5, that's an active tone (tension) that wants to be resolved to the #4.

As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, I favor the whole-step/half-step diminished scale plus natural 5th (say, over Am: A, B, C, D, D#, E, F, F#,G#) over a tonic minor, but that's over min(maj7), not a minor 7. The half-step/whole-step is an interesting (admittedly unconventional!) way of connecting the dots of the minor 7 chord, especially if you have a static ii m7-V7 like "Mister Magic" or a similar vamp. If you are using the minor 7 chord as tonic, then it makes sense to add the natural 4 to the scale. If your m7 is the iv chord in minor, you can add instead the note a step above the root (this gives the 4th mode of the scale spelled above.

Anyway, here's a 4 bar example of the application, complete with an approach to the b3 from the b4! Michael Sorg Music - Theory
 
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