[Enthusiast65]

Just got a 1926 Pan American soprano arrived in grimy, somewhat gunky and verdigris-affected condition, straight out of a mid west attic, with a pad job from sometime in the '40s or so I guess.

Amazingly, from underneath the crud and a few bits of rod rust has emerged a beautiful instrument. The tone holes (not rolled bar the very top ones) are very evenly drawn and have nice super-smooth rims. the mechanism, which is my next job, was tight as new when on the body with no lateral movement anywhere and showing no obvious wear to any of the touch points.

The build quality on this baby is better than most professional grade instruments of today. Yet it was sold back in the day as a student and marching band model. No idea what it plays like yet but I'm optimistic. It leads me to ponder on the notion that these 'second line' instruments from the golden era are professional in all but name and have the potential to be absolute bargains.

It's a few millimetres longer than my 1928 New Wonder II soprano yet the tone holes are more or less identically placed.
I wonder if that very small extra length might mean great tuning. We shall have to wait and see in due course!

Here's the keyword soaking in rubbing alcohol to dissolve the shellac, pre clean up.

 

[wilco87]

That's a beautiful instrument! I wonder sometimes why we keep buying crap student instruments while those from long ago are far better for a little more money. Please keep us posted on how it plays...

 

[datsaxman]

Wowee! Yeah, that is very nice indeed. A Conn for the price of a Cecilio.

 

[Dr G]

I haven't handled that many stencils, so I'll ask: What are the differences between the stencils and their "real" models? If it is innate such as key work, then that will persist; if it is a difference in fit and finish, then an overhauled instrument with attention to fitting the keys and adjusting the mechanism, may indeed play as well as the "real thing".

 

[datsaxman]

Depends on the stencil. A Pan Am is (was) an older model Conn, built by different folks.
A Yanagisawa stencil is probably the then-current model with everything except the Yany name.

Some other stencils are doubtless substantially cheaper editions.

 

[Dr G]

Depends on the stencil. A Pan Am is (was) an older model Conn, built by different folks.
A Yanagisawa stencil is probably the then-current model with everything except the Yany name.

Some other stencils are doubtless substantially cheaper editions.

Thanks, DSM.

All the best to you and yours,

George

 

[datsaxman]

You too, G. I am no expert on the many stencils out there. I had a Wurlitzer C Mel once upon a time!

- How did it play?
-- It was silver.

 

[Hornlip]

Depends on the stencil. A Pan Am is (was) an older model Conn, built by different folks.
A Yanagisawa stencil is probably the then-current model with everything except the Yany name.

Some other stencils are doubtless substantially cheaper editions.

Also, I think Buescher & Martin stencils were yesterday's model + keywork but often assembled by the same guys who put together the current top of the line, so you got build-quality consistency with newer models. I've handled split-bell Buescher stencils that were probably made in the late '20s or early '30s but other than lacking the snap-on pads, were identical to the True-Tone horns from the period right before the front-F & crescent F# was added.

 

[Enthusiast65]

I haven't handled that many stencils, so I'll ask: What are the differences between the stencils and their "real" models? If it is innate such as key work, then that will persist; if it is a difference in fit and finish, then an overhauled instrument with attention to fitting the keys and adjusting the mechanism, may indeed play as well as the "real thing".

I'm not sure Pan Ams qualify as stencils. They were made in a different, Conn-owned factory with their own tooling. The Pan Am factory made stencils for other people, but their own models were positioned as easy to play, student instruments. I read somewhere it was also a useful brand to sell to music shops in towns where another shop in the same vicinity had a Conn exclusivity.

The quality of build and finish is indistinguishable from a Conn New Wonder. The silver plate, gold wash bell, quality and finish of the keys, clean neat solders - are all comparable.

The design is a bit different to a NWII but may be closer to a NWI - I only have the latter to hand to compare. It would make some sense if this is based on the earlier design. The big difference is no rolled tone holes apart from the very top ones. There are a few other mechanism differences (to the NWII).

 

[stomias]

Coming at it from my experience with Kings, I find that my 50's Clevelands ('57 Tenor and a recently purchased '59 alto), which some say were "student" horns, are a great sounding horn and a bargain to boot. The tenor sounds so similar to my '54 Zephyr which is a fine horn indeed.

 

[JayeLID]

This has been mentioned before, but I will note it for posterity sake if nothing else:

....there IS a difference in definition/intent of the contemporary label of "student instrument' vs. the bygone days when that label was not used...it was typically 'band instrument' or something like this.

These vintage horns we are familiar with, Conn Directors/PanAms, Martin Indianas, King Cleves, Buescher Elkharts, Holton Collegiates, etc....they were simply the company's second-shelf, more affordable offerings.

There is a distinction between this and the modern definition of 'student instrument'. One being the latter, as marketed and as understood by most of our instrumental society, describes a model which is meant to be 'grown out of', 'put aside', 'stepped up from', 'passed on to', etc.

The oldies, there was little intimation/marketing that these were to be discarded at some point. They were simply the company's more budget-conscious offering.

It isn't uncommon for a vintage dealer, or a tech who knows a lot about vintage horns, or a vintage horn geek....when asked something like: "is the Martin Indiana (King Cleve, Conn Director) a student horn, or better ?"....

....to reply "well, they weren't referred to as student horns back in the day, so the 'student' label doesn't really accurately describe/correlate"....etc, etc....

 

[JayeLID]

I'm not sure Pan Ams qualify as stencils. They were made in a different, Conn-owned factory with their own tooling. The Pan Am factory made stencils for other people, but their own models were positioned as easy to play, student instruments. I read somewhere it was also a useful brand to sell to music shops in towns where another shop in the same vicinity had a Conn exclusivity.

The quality of build and finish is indistinguishable from a Conn New Wonder. The silver plate, gold wash bell, quality and finish of the keys, clean neat solders - are all comparable.

The design is a bit different to a NWII but may be closer to a NWI - I only have the latter to hand to compare. It would make some sense if this is based on the earlier design. The big difference is no rolled tone holes apart from the very top ones. There are a few other mechanism differences (to the NWII).

Correct. I actually have measured up splitbell PanAm Alto bodies vs. the NW I and II. The body and neck specs are the same. The differences were: NW's had the rolled holes (most of 'em, early I's did not) and the microtuner, then some minor keywork differences.

Also correct: PanAms, Indianas, and Elkharts, etc...are not techinically stencils (when engraved Pan Am, Martin Indiana, Elkhart, etc). They were the company's second-line brands.
They may have been the same instruments as some stencils (for example, the PanAm/Director appears as a "Topper" and a "Continental Colonial", the Martin Indiana appears as the "Lyric" and the "Olds Ambassador", the Buescher-Elkharts appear with a ton of other names on the bell ("Blessing", for one, comes to mind).

The 'assembled by different folks' thing.....arguable. It was believed, for example, that Martin Indianas were made at a separate facility. This was dispelled a few years ago on this very forum by a relative of some longtime family members who worked at Martin. Indianas were built at Martin.
The Pan Ams....Identical body specs to the Conn NW's and Artist horns, again minus the rth and flourishes - those were produced at the Elkhart factory...the factory was rolling off the same bodies and necks for their first and second-shelf horns. Conn did not invest in stocking a diferent factory with duplicate tooling to roll off the same bodies and 75% same keywork. Pan Ams were built at Conn, Elkhart.
Collegiates were made at Holton, Elkhorn.
And Cleves were made at HN White, Cleveland AND Eastlake.
I am not certain about (Buescher) Elkharts....member Maddenma was the expert on those, if one cares to they can probably dig up the skinny there via a search here... but I seem to recall that the initial assumption that EBICo was a seperate entity than Buescher, was contradicted some as well. It was once a separate entity, but after Buescher bought 'em I do not think the Elkhart facility was independent of the Buescher one.

 

[Enthusiast65]

Wonderful summary JayeLID, thank you.

I had another look and the reference to a Pan Am factory opening was from Kurt on another forum. Whether that was just a turn of phrase around a new affordable line launch or an actual factory I wasn't sure. You are pretty convinced it was the same production line though.