[WinnSie]

I'm talking about "soft" curved bends without kinks and sharp distortions - just for clarification.

I've seen the sax body being straightened with both keys on and off. I managed in the past (when I needed) to carefully unbend a few vintage horns while I'm not a tech. I always went slowly by first identifying the exact bend shape and location and then applying the unbending force where it needed to be applied. I always did it with the keys off.

I found warnings against unbending the sax body with the keys off. It was suggested that the keys need to be on so that everything returns to it's original shape and mutually "clicks" into proper place.
I doubt that is always a valid recommendation. For instance, when the body is bent between two posts far apart inward either the posts or the hinge rod/tubes will bend as well and they will have to be straightened separately anyway along with returning the posts to their original location. So in this situation it doesn't matter much whether the keys were on or off when repairing the bend.

I see there is also a negative side to this recommendation. Suppose the bend between two far posts has a convex shape - that is the hinges become loose because of the increased distance between posts. Posts are now "naturally" tilted apart but they are not necessarily displaced in respect to their base position.
When trying to bend the body back with the keys ON the posts will be distorted when applying an "over bending" force that is always needed to go past the bend slightly in the opposite direction in order to return the bend to its "neutral" shape.

 

[JayeLID]

I believe the notion of 'keys on' is suggested because

a) if there is some key binding this will unbind 'em, and you can actually measure how the unbending is working...

b) the rods and keys in place actually provide a bit of a 'counter' mass to the impact done when unbending the tube.

I have done it both ways.

For me, at least, when one does a tube straightening, they should expect swedging and some post knocking to be part of the followup work which will need to be done.

Sorry, not a very complete answer, but just my first impressions....I know other repairers here have stronger opinions on this subject, they will likely chime in....

 

[1saxman]

The last one I did, a Chinese student model from around 1995 (I originally bought it for a client's kid from WW&BW and it was a decent tenor), came back to me to dispose-of. I had to fix a few things but noticed a slight kink in the body, a typical 'lean to the front' body bend. I just removed the clamp screw, fixed up a soft spot on the bench and whacked it (strike the surface with the clamp collar fairly hard). Actually had to whack it twice, but I was pretty amazed to see that the kink corrected itself, and checking the action, all pads were seating on the original rings and all was good - playing nicely.
I sold it to a kid on ebay for very low $ and was very pleased with the outcome.
I've never had to unbend one of my horns - I guess I don't 'push' them. I also don't bend necks down. But I'm not perfect, I blow spittle when I play and it goes all over. Never forget I was sitting in on a blues jam, beside a keyboard player, and he complained that spit was getting on his keyboard. I said, 'Bottle it son, it'll be worth something one day'.

 

[saxoclese]

The body was bent with the keys on and as a result the keys and posts moved accordingly. It makes the most sense to return the body to its original position as close as possible by applying an "equal but opposite force" to the body and letting the key "orientation" follow. This applies to a slight to moderate "bow" in the body tube. Severe dents and bends of course must be corrected with all of the adjacent keys and sometimes even the ribs removed. My Mark VI dumpster horn was a good example.

 

[musekatcher]

I've had two horns that had some curve in the main body. I had one fixed during a rebuild, the other is still there, till its next rebuild - which may not happen in my lifetime. Both were pointed out to me by techs - the horns were still functional, and not obvious. Personally, I'd leave it alone till time for a rebuild.

 

[saxoclese]

I've had two horns that had some curve in the main body. I had one fixed during a rebuild, the other is still there, till its next rebuild - which may not happen in my lifetime. Both were pointed out to me by techs - the horns were still functional, and not obvious. Personally, I'd leave it alone till time for a rebuild.

Exactly. My mentor taught me that if all the keys are working with acceptable play and all the pads are sealing, a minor body bend that has been in the sax for a long period of time is better left alone. "If it's not broke, don't fix it".

 

[Guto]

My primary 1956 Mark VI has a slightly arched body as well from an old drop before I buy it more then 20 years ago. It has since gone through a couple overhauls and it plays fantastically. Plus who knows what other maintenance jobs were done to it before I acquired it 20+ years ago. I’ve only owned it for a third of its life so far! Sometimes it bothers me too when I notice the bend while it’s on the stand but it’d never attempt to straighten it back. That’d just open a can of worms on a horn that plays perfectly otherwise.

 

[saxoclese]

That'd just open a can of worms on a horn that plays perfectly otherwise.

Well put.

 

[whaler]

I saw Sol Fromkin eyeball and bend a banana tenor over his knee with the keys on. It made me cringe but he handed it back to the guy and it was fine.

 

[datsaxman]

Yeah. I have a Conn tenor like that. Banana shape. Bought from a SOTW member like that unbeknownst to me.

I was off on a business trip very shortly after receiving it, so I only gave it a quick blow. Seemed OK.
I got back to find that it was pretty bent. The buyer said it was fine when packed. And maybe it was.

Looking forward to giving it a Fromkin ...

 

[Ken]

I've had two horns that had some curve in the main body. I had one fixed during a rebuild, the other is still there, till its next rebuild - which may not happen in my lifetime. Both were pointed out to me by techs - the horns were still functional, and not obvious. Personally, I'd leave it alone till time for a rebuild.

Exactly. My mentor taught me that if all the keys are working with acceptable play and all the pads are sealing, a minor body bend that has been in the sax for a long period of time is better left alone. "If it's not broke, don't fix it".

Just to add my tech's take on this, he told me even a minor a bend in the body caused by for example the body to bell brace adds tension to the metal which can prevent the metal from resonating, same with neck pull down.

 

[saxoclese]

Just to add my tech's take on this, he told me even a minor a bend in the body caused by for example the body to bell brace adds tension to the metal which can prevent the metal from resonating, same with neck pull down.

I hope he was just kidding. The body of an acoustic guitar or a violin "resonates". The body of a saxophone does not. The column of air inside a saxophone when set into vibration by the reed has a "natural resonant frequency" determined by the length of the tube. The brass body and bell of a saxophone do exhibit weak vibrations, however they are too weak to be heard and the vibrations of the tube itself have no effect whatsoever on the standing wave in the column of air inside.

 

[datsaxman]

True Dat.

 

[WinnSie]

The body was bent with the keys on and as a result the keys and posts moved accordingly. It makes the most sense to return the body to its original position as close as possible by applying an "equal but opposite force" to the body and letting the key "orientation" follow.
...

Makes sense to me. After which of course additional corrective actions could be applied with the keys on/off as required.
Otherwise personal judgement should be used.

 

[JayeLID]

My primary 1956 Mark VI has a slightly arched body as well from an old drop before I buy it more then 20 years ago. It has since gone through a couple overhauls and it plays fantastically. Plus who knows what other maintenance jobs were done to it before I acquired it 20+ years ago. I've only owned it for a third of its life so far! Sometimes it bothers me too when I notice the bend while it's on the stand but it'd never attempt to straighten it back. That'd just open a can of worms on a horn that plays perfectly otherwise.

It's fine if it plays fantastically and always has.

But there is zero reason NOT to have a tube bend corrected if the horn is gonna get an overhaul or a repad. Any fear that 'it wouldn't be the same'...is just sorta unfounded fear, as a good tech would take care of any subsequent key fitting issues during the repad/overhaul.

Not a criticism of your decision...just replying to this because I do not want subsequent readers to interpret this as saying
"DON'T straighten the body should you overhaul it because it is gonna create issues ".
In the hands of a respectable tech, no...that would not be so...and if I were springing for an overhaul I wouldn't hesitate to have the tech correct the bend.

 

[zapatista]

So do y'all tech type people have a tapered mandrel or set of tapered mandrels you use when fixing a bent tube with keys off? Fabricate for each overhaul or general body type?

 

[saxoclese]

So do y'all tech type people have a tapered mandrel or set of tapered mandrels you use when fixing a bent tube with keys off? Fabricate for each overhaul or general body type?

Good question. Early in my career I purchased Ferree's "Sir Lancelot" mandrel which weights a ton. The problem is that the taper does not match most saxophone bodies I have tried to use it on. When I was restoring the damaged alto shown above I "rented" a custom made mandrel from JL Smith that was made to the exact taper of a mark VI alto. It was very effective. I have not tried the new tapered saxophone mandrels made by Music Medic that come in two or three sizes.

 

[adamk]

I saw Sol Fromkin eyeball and bend a banana tenor over his knee with the keys on. It made me cringe but he handed it back to the guy and it was fine.

The 1st thing Bruce Belo did after assessing my newly purchased 1950s Buescher 140 alto was to put a mandrel in the tenon, tighten it down and proceed to drop the mandrel end from a foot high onto his metal bench while holding the other end.
Took the bow right out. You got to know metal.

 

[clarnibass]

Good question. Early in my career I purchased Ferree's "Sir Lancelot" mandrel which weights a ton. The problem is that the taper does not match most saxophone bodies I have tried to use it on. When I was restoring the damaged alto shown above I "rented" a custom made mandrel from JL Smith that was made to the exact taper of a mark VI alto. It was very effective. I have not tried the new tapered saxophone mandrels made by Music Medic that come in two or three sizes.

The problem with one long mandrel is that even if it matches the bore exactly, the body would spring back some. It might help remove a very significant bend, but it won't remove a small one and won't completely remove any bend.

I don't have those Music Medic partial mandrels, but I have the Boehm ones (I assume where Music Medic got the idea for theirs). They are some of the best tools to straighten a bent body if you can remove the bow (so great for straight sopranos). They are especially good for "weird" bends or several bends, etc. I don't know about the Music Medic ones, but the Boehm mandrels are very slightly parabolic which makes it even better than just conical.

 

[simso]

I have rebuilt some pretty seriously crushed instruments, I always start my bending process with keys on, once it is relatively straight I take key work off and perfect my straightening of the body and said keys, then during re-assembly I tweak or adjust posts and keywork as required

Steve