[J-Moen]

As I've been working through some newer routines in practice, I wanted to know how people tackle this specific hurdle.

I'm finding that in my improv I'm lacking the ability to think outside of anything quicker than 8ths (save the one 8th triplet I may occasionally add but its gone in an instant). But I can hear in my head, and specifically when just humming/whistling over a backing track some quick passages that I think would sound really good.

For some reference, I've been working speed drills in scales, to up my finger ability and my ears, but there has been zero translation into soloing and the way I think during a solo. Here is one small example of what I'm working, in all 12 keys (just CMaj7 pictured):

I've been running this among others, and slowly increasing the tempo. Now I've always had a weird mental block for 16ths, so this has been a challenge to me. I've only gotten these up to 120 bpm so far, so I've got a ways to go. Many other examples with triads and approaches, and other more interesting things than this, but I felt like this was an easy example.

I am truly at a loss for how to think at this speed during a solo to play whats in my head! I know I could go memorize some licks from some transcriptions by playing them slower, then speed them up to tempo and try to throw those around, but I am trying to find a way to think originally during the changes, which allows me to play whats actually going on in my head.

So I sincerely ask, what crosses your mind during the changes and how did you improve the speed of your improv significantly? Are there any training scenarios you can use which help train your mind to think through changes and your overall solo at a faster rate?

 

[swperry1]

16ths at 120bpm Is plenty of technique. Can you play them evenly at 60bpm? Now work on your ears while you shed more interesting patterns—like ones from your head and solos or melodies you dig—until you can play what you hear in real time.

 

[J-Moen]

16ths at 120bpm Is plenty of technique. Can you play them evenly at 60bpm? Now work on your ears while you shed more interesting patterns-like ones from your head and solos or melodies you dig-until you can play what you hear in real time.

Thanks for the response! I can indeed play them at 60bpm evenly, although I still constantly have to kick myself for preempting the 1 and 3 of each measure, but I can make it happen without those issues.

So, in basic terms - Ear training parts/licks (I suppose) is where most of the transference takes place between ability to play fast and ability to think fast while shedding?

 

[Dr G]

Trick question, right? How do you think of words when you start talking fast? If they are not already in your vocabulary, then they won’t be available in the moment.

Once it gets to a certain velocity, you don’t have time to think about it. You build on your years of experience of shedding and performing, and just play.

 

[J-Moen]

Interesting G - I'd say the vocabulary, or at least some of it, is already there - I suppose I just haven't gotten it to the proper medium on the horn, as I can vocalize it.

So, both mental and muscle memory are the keys to shedding through changes at blazing speed? In other words, get back in there and keep practicing

 

[Nefertiti]

As I've been working through some newer routines in practice, I wanted to know how people tackle this specific hurdle.

I'm finding that in my improv I'm lacking the ability to think outside of anything quicker than 8ths (save the one 8th triplet I may occasionally add but its gone in an instant). But I can hear in my head, and specifically when just humming/whistling over a backing track some quick passages that I think would sound really good.

For some reference, I've been working speed drills in scales, to up my finger ability and my ears, but there has been zero translation into soloing and the way I think during a solo. Here is one small example of what I'm working, in all 12 keys (just CMaj7 pictured):
View attachment 260398

I've been running this among others, and slowly increasing the tempo. Now I've always had a weird mental block for 16ths, so this has been a challenge to me. I've only gotten these up to 120 bpm so far, so I've got a ways to go. Many other examples with triads and approaches, and other more interesting things than this, but I felt like this was an easy example.

I am truly at a loss for how to think at this speed during a solo to play whats in my head! I know I could go memorize some licks from some transcriptions by playing them slower, then speed them up to tempo and try to throw those around, but I am trying to find a way to think originally during the changes, which allows me to play whats actually going on in my head.

So I sincerely ask, what crosses your mind during the changes and how did you improve the speed of your improv significantly? Are there any training scenarios you can use which help train your mind to think through changes and your overall solo at a faster rate?

Although diatonic patterns can be useful for playing and technique in general, I find them limited as far as usefulness while soloing. In my mind, hearing diatonic patterns during a solo is a bit lame. I prefer to work on small bits of jazz language and connect them as I discuss in many of my books. (Dominant Bebop scale 1&2, Approach Note Books, Major Bebop Scale, etc....) Those small bits of memorized jazz language can be accessed and linked together in the same way that words are when we talk. To me, this is the optimal way to learn these lines. You learn 10 of them and suddenly you can play a line one thousand different ways using the same 10 elements of the jazz language.

 

[Taragot]

I try to think in bigger pictures and try to understand the harmonic plan of a piece like: The A section is in X-Major - then it goes to Y-Major in the B-Section .....I don't always get every tension in a secondary dominant or every passing chord - but I'm a jazz-faker compared to Steve Neff and I'm ok with that.

 

[J-Moen]

Although diatonic patterns can be useful for playing and technique in general, I find them limited as far as usefulness while soloing. In my mind, hearing diatonic patterns during a solo is a bit lame. I prefer to work on small bits of jazz language and connect them as I discuss in many of my books. (Dominant Bebop scale 1&2, Approach Note Books, Major Bebop Scale, etc....) Those small bits of memorized jazz language can be accessed and linked together in the same way that words are when we talk. To me, this is the optimal way to learn these lines. You learn 10 of them and suddenly you can play a line one thousand different ways using the same 10 elements of the jazz language.

Thanks Steve! Great to have your thoughts in here. Yeah diatonic is a bit boring, but I figured I would start very basic in order to work up my speed. I am also working on some approach note exercises and just started sitting down to actually learn the bebop scales.

Memorization seems to be the common idea here though - It makes the most sense.

The hardest part for me is I don't hear the pattern for the song, it just feels like I'm playing scale notes while practicing, and doesn't translate to the tunes.

Would this idea be of benefit? If i start trying to play some of my diatonic/approach note/etc patterns over a backing so I can hear it over the chords? Would this be a good better approach to training my ears, and therefore my mind to conceptualize the relation between the patterns and the chords?

 

[mi000ke]

You learn 10 of them and suddenly you can play a line one thousand different ways using the same 10 elements of the jazz language.

And for you math nerds out there, a "combination replacement" process whereby you chose 10 elements (licks or other vocab units) from a set of 10, where order does not matter and duplicates are allowed, will give you 92,378 combinations. I must have too much lockdown time on my hands. Time to practice.

 

[1saxman]

You have to know all the different types of chords and practice arpeggios, etc., so you can play without actually having to think about the chord. IOW, each chord change sets a 'mode' that automatically triggers the chord notes as well as transition phrases. In the past players would use their fake books to learn every tune in them. Its not just knowing heads, its knowing the whole structure of thousands of tunes that forms the knowledge base you need. Once you're versed in this, you can practice songs and work out the licks that you 'hear' for each change. Just like any other instrument, you practice certain exercises that are meant to build your technique so you can physically play what you're thinking of.

 

[Nefertiti]

Thanks Steve! Great to have your thoughts in here. Yeah diatonic is a bit boring, but I figured I would start very basic in order to work up my speed. I am also working on some approach note exercises and just started sitting down to actually learn the bebop scales.

Memorization seems to be the common idea here though - It makes the most sense.

The hardest part for me is I don't hear the pattern for the song, it just feels like I'm playing scale notes while practicing, and doesn't translate to the tunes.

Would this idea be of benefit? If i start trying to play some of my diatonic/approach note/etc patterns over a backing so I can hear it over the chords? Would this be a good better approach to training my ears, and therefore my mind to conceptualize the relation between the patterns and the chords?

These lessons are great in regard to using the approach note lines to play fast lines over a tune:

https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/product/approaching-rhythm-changes-lesson/
https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/product/beautiful-love-approach-note-lesson/
https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/product/autumn-leaves-approach-note-velocity-combinations-lesson/

The key is practicing the approach note patterns in small 5 note sections that link together on the downbeats. Practicing these approaches without linking them to others is like practice a word without ever putting it in a sentence. These work so well because the approach note lines are weaving in and out of the tonality through the changes. In many of these examples in the lessons, I am not even attempting to hit the changes but just playing in the tonality.

 

[Nefertiti]

Would this idea be of benefit? If i start trying to play some of my diatonic/approach note/etc patterns over a backing so I can hear it over the chords? Would this be a good better approach to training my ears, and therefore my mind to conceptualize the relation between the patterns and the chords?

You want to practice all of these with a backing track whether it be diatonic patterns, bebop scale vocabulary or approach note vocabulary. The biggest mistake people make is not doing this. Why not practice with a backing track so you can always be hearing how the notes sound against the tonality. That way you are constantly training your ear on how every note sounds and wants to resolve. My playing jumped ahead leaps and bounds when I started doing this when I was younger.

 

[Grumps]

You build on your years of experience of shedding and performing, and just play.

Yes. This.

I don't even know what notes look like anymore.

 

[J-Moen]

These lessons are great in regard to using the approach note lines to play fast lines over a tune:

https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/product/approaching-rhythm-changes-lesson/
https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/product/beautiful-love-approach-note-lesson/
https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/product/autumn-leaves-approach-note-velocity-combinations-lesson/

The key is practicing the approach note patterns in small 5 note sections that link together on the downbeats. Practicing these approaches without linking them to others is like practice a word without ever putting it in a sentence. These work so well because the approach note lines are weaving in and out of the tonality through the changes. In many of these examples in the lessons, I am not even attempting to hit the changes but just playing in the tonality.

You want to practice all of these with a backing track whether it be diatonic patterns, bebop scale vocabulary or approach note vocabulary. The biggest mistake people make is not doing this. Why not practice with a backing track so you can always be hearing how the notes sound against the tonality. That way you are constantly training your ear on how every note sounds and wants to resolve. My playing jumped ahead leaps and bounds when I started doing this when I was younger.

Thanks a bunch Steve! I'll look into the approach note exercises! This backing track thing is probably going to change my entire practice. I'll be giving it a shot today, I really feel like this is going to be amazing for my practice as well. I can't believe it never crossed my mind, I always just played the patterns over and over.

 

[Atratr]

I think just like Steve, and i concentrate on asimilating small chunks of language and learn to use those spontaneously.
Also would add an exercise from Bergonzi´s Rhythm book, Vol 4 Melodic Rhythms, where you play only groups of 16ths(3,4,5,6) on a tune(or a single chord if you use a backing track). Instead of going for a long run of 16ths you first learn to phrase on smaller groups that usually would come sounding very different than any prelearned lick.
Of course, good command on tehnique is needed if you want to avoid playing the same easier 16ths(like scale bits, for example) runs.
Also don´t underestimate other groupings just like triplets. Sometimes putting some triplets, quintuplets....leads to a more free rhythm feel that i think could help managing fast playing too and of course led to a more lively rhytmical way of playing.
Mental note for myself for practicing all these.

 

[J-Moen]

I think just like Steve, and i concentrate on asimilating small chunks of language and learn to use those spontaneously.
Also would add an exercise from Bergonzi´s Rhythm book, Vol 4 Melodic Rhythms, where you play only groups of 16ths(3,4,5,6) on a tune(or a single chord if you use a backing track). Instead of going for a long run of 16ths you first learn to phrase on smaller groups that usually would come sounding very different than any prelearned lick.
Of course, good command on tehnique is needed if you want to avoid playing the same easier 16ths(like scale bits, for example) runs.
Also don´t underestimate other groupings just like triplets. Sometimes putting some triplets, quintuplets....leads to a more free rhythm feel that i think could help managing fast playing too and of course led to a more lively rhytmical way of playing.
Mental note for myself for practicing all these.

Thanks! This is also a great idea. I think the majority of my examples are longer runs of 16ths so this isolation method could work well for me. I love triplets, my favorite sax player used them religiously - Johnny Hodges. I just have to work up some intricacy and memorization in all 12 keys for these patterns! I'm doing a Parker transcription now, and I'll be taking some of the ii-V-i's and memorizing them, hopefully to put to good use!

Thanks everyone!

 

[turf3]

Well, one thing that you don't do when playing fast over a chord progression that you know, is to go chord.by.chord.one.at.a.time. Simple example: If you are describing a tune they've never heard to experienced jazz players, and you say "the bridge is a rhythm changes bridge" you have just told them exactly what the middle 8 is going to sound like. No one who's played rhythm changes more than a few times, is going to think "oh gee, that's 6-2-5-1". If you already know what the changes are going to sound like, you just play things that sound good in that context. It's the same thing with, let's say, ii-V7-I patterns. What you have to do is to internalize things that sound good over that set of chords, then use those (with modifications according to the demands of the moment).

This is why for most of us, you tell us "it's a 12 bar blues in Eb with a quick 4 and a 1-6--2-5 turnaround" and now we know what we need to do. It's also how soloists can followi the rhythm section if they start introducing alternative chord sequences (descending chromatically substitutes for 2-5-1, for example) or rhythm players can follow soloists (for example, when the soloist doubles up).

Personally, for example, when I find myself at a jam session or real book gig where they're calling tunes, the most common thing I do is to look at the lead sheet during the first couple choruses, so i can think "OK, when it does THAT, that's what it is" and then I just move away from the lead sheet and play from my experience of what sounds good and I can execute.

The more vocabulary you have under your command, both from shedding it explicitly, and from listenint to it with careful attention, the more you'll be able to go from a general understanding of song form wtihout repeating yourself.

 

[turf3]

The hardest part for me is I don't hear the pattern for the song, it just feels like I'm playing scale notes while practicing, and doesn't translate to the tunes.

Don't play scales when you're improvising. There is some, limited, value in playing scales up and down in long strings when you're first getting a grasp on a new scale, but in my opinion running up and down scales is either not helpful or counterproductive to developing good solos, as those long easy-to-play strings have a bad tendency to show up and take over. Personally I'd rather practice almost any other kind of pattern - broken arpeggios, third-second intervals up and down, four note cells, etc., etc., than just up and down scales in sixteenth notes.

 

[J-Moen]

Well, one thing that you don't do when playing fast over a chord progression that you know, is to go chord.by.chord.one.at.a.time. Simple example: If you are describing a tune they've never heard to experienced jazz players, and you say "the bridge is a rhythm changes bridge" you have just told them exactly what the middle 8 is going to sound like. No one who's played rhythm changes more than a few times, is going to think "oh gee, that's 6-2-5-1". If you already know what the changes are going to sound like, you just play things that sound good in that context. It's the same thing with, let's say, ii-V7-I patterns. What you have to do is to internalize things that sound good over that set of chords, then use those (with modifications according to the demands of the moment).

This is why for most of us, you tell us "it's a 12 bar blues in Eb with a quick 4 and a 1-6--2-5 turnaround" and now we know what we need to do. It's also how soloists can followi the rhythm section if they start introducing alternative chord sequences (descending chromatically substitutes for 2-5-1, for example) or rhythm players can follow soloists (for example, when the soloist doubles up).

Personally, for example, when I find myself at a jam session or real book gig where they're calling tunes, the most common thing I do is to look at the lead sheet during the first couple choruses, so i can think "OK, when it does THAT, that's what it is" and then I just move away from the lead sheet and play from my experience of what sounds good and I can execute.

The more vocabulary you have under your command, both from shedding it explicitly, and from listenint to it with careful attention, the more you'll be able to go from a general understanding of song form wtihout repeating yourself.

Don't play scales when you're improvising. There is some, limited, value in playing scales up and down in long strings when you're first getting a grasp on a new scale, but in my opinion running up and down scales is either not helpful or counterproductive to developing good solos, as those long easy-to-play strings have a bad tendency to show up and take over. Personally I'd rather practice almost any other kind of pattern - broken arpeggios, third-second intervals up and down, four note cells, etc., etc., than just up and down scales in sixteenth notes.

Thanks Turf! First, the chord progressions and common patterns is something I've always failed to recognize. I just recently got an instructor who has me focusing on learning the changes before the song - which is something I've never done before. Even the transcription, he said to memorize the changes and then transcribe the notes so I can have context of what patterns are being played and why. This is going to be HUGE for me, I can already tell. Its going slow, but I like what i'm hearing from myself on this specific song I'm working. Definitely not at the point where you could tell me its a 1-6-2-5 and I can fly over it - I can think it through and write them out if you ask me, but not just know what i'm going to play based on this, and thats something I have to build.

Second, the diatonic/scale patterns are at the instruction of my new instructor to build on in the future. He wants me to start here, and then we're going to continue to build up to something with a little more pizazz. And this is as good a time as any, I've actually gotten in and am taking lessons with Chad Lefkowitz-Brown!

 

[Saxophone Strange]

I must refer to Hal Galper on this one... it’s not about your fingers but your ear. When you are playing lines, are you thinking of melodies or patterns? Patterns are wonderful to build the technique to play fast but you are have to have the ear to know where to put it. Who are you listening to? Who are you’re trying to play like?