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Stumbled in Internet on this study, published 5 years ago.

https://pure.mpg.de/rest/items/item_2242152_5/component/file_3010968/content


Since in my work with students on improvisation I emphasize the element of prosody, the body language , a preliminary emotional setting and improvisation scenario, I consider it important to submit this article to the general review of musicians - improvisers; to take something out of it for himself. In any case, one observation already deserves attention: "The intonations of actors in everyday life are different from their intonations on stage."
 

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Interesting stuff.

I don’t know if you know, but I have been interested in the neuropsychological connection between language (also speech) and music for quite some time.

I have commented before about these things (especially in a thread called Sometimes Behave so strangely ) which received a very poor welcome by several members here

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?198413-Sometimes-Behaves-SO-Strangely

Many people research these things and are trying to find common patters which tie the two activities.
https://eurotalk.com/blog/2015/03/3...-the-relationship-between-language-and-music/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3338120/
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/between-speech-and-song

I have also, at some point, also corresponded with Professor Diana Deutsch because I was interested in musical improvisation and the ability to speak several languages.

As I wrote other times, I am a non-reader when it comes to music ( there is also been a speculation that I am affected by some sort of dyslexia which would affect me only in this field, since I am not when it comes to language reading and writing) but I am a good improvisator.

I have always wondered where this comes from and I have always made a connection to my ability to learn languages, recognize grammar patterns and more importantly to remember words and the way to pronounce them, much the same as I do with music.

Maybe you like to listen to this radio program ( if one heats the subject maybe not the best way to use your time)
 

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Oh, and you too? DD is more in the field of absolute hearing.
Not only, she has made a clear correlation on the languages such as Chinese and the perception of pitch but this is not only about absolute hearing

“...She also studies the cognitive foundation of musical grammars, the ways in which people hold musical pitches in memory, and the ways in which people relate the sounds of music and speech to each other..”

“ Memory for musical tones, and representation of musical structure[edit]
Deutsch has carried out extensive research on memory for sequences of tones. She demonstrated that short-term memory for the pitch of a tone is the function of a specialized and highly organized system, where information is not subject to interference by other sounds such as spoken words. Deutsch also published one of the earliest neural networks for musical pattern recognition. Later, Deutsch and Feroe published a theoretical model for the representation of pitch sequences in tonal music, in which pitch sequences are represented as hierarchies. The model proposes that elements are organized as structural units at each level of a hierarchy. Elements that are present at each level are elaborated by other elements so as to create structural units at the next lower level. This process of elaboration continues until the lowest level is reached. The model has been used by others as a basis for more elaborate models for the representation of musical sequences."
 

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Not only, she has made a clear correlation on the languages such as Chinese and the perception of pitch but this is not only about absolute hearing

.."
Yes, I also saw these materials. My main interest: methods that pave the way for the synthesis of spoken and musical language ​​in order to educate a intentionally improvising musician who has every note that makes sense.
 

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Yes, I also saw these materials. My main interest: methods that pave the way for the synthesis of spoken and musical language ​​in order to educate a intentionally improvising musician who has every note that makes sense.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by “ intentionally improvising musician who has every note that makes sense”
 

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I am not sure I understand what you mean by “ intentionally improvising musician who has every note that makes sense”
Imagine 2 situations: you are sleepy lying on a bed and unconsciously repeating - "Sleep ... sleep ... slee ...ee ...e ...". Or you command me - "Sleep!" .This command is intentional, and it makes sense (for you).
 

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It does but I think that real improvisation, though, intentional, has to be a product of the moment or isn’t, in the true sense of the word, improvisation.

But of course this re-opens the old discussion of what improvisation is.

In my opinion improvisation is instant composition. The moment you start preparing to it, it has lost something. It has much to do with juggling or slack rope walking. You practice, of course, but much happens then and there and you react to something that you haven’t prepared beforehand instantly accessing the databank of possible reactions to any given stimuli. It is, by its own nature, non repeatable although elements (which some may call licks) will be re usable at will or on the spur of the moment.

Making sense, is , of course, a very relative concept. What makes sense to one person is completely not making sense to another.
 

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It does but I think that real improvisation, though, intentional, has to be a product of the moment or isn’t, in the true sense of the word, improvisation.

But of course this re-opens the old discussion of what improvisation is.
I am more than sure that theater improvisation is not familiar to you. I have a textbook on theatrical improvisation, but in Russian. I saw something similar in English in Amazon a week ago:
https://www.amazon.com/Theatrical-Improvisation-Consciousness-Cognition-Drinko/dp/1137335289
and had a short correspondence with the author.
In the Russian system of spontaneous theatrical improvisation, there are two main types of improvisation: spontaneous and structural ; and 3 main principles: 1. idea, 2. partner, 3. changes. The usual jazz improvisation is certainly structural ; however, dialogue requires familiarity with the material.
Nevertheless, I did this practically with my students, and, apparently, I am a pioneer in this area (in Berklee, they also do not know about this).
Two short spontaneous improvisations; the first spontaneous in all respects and devoid of intention, the second - with an improvised scenario :

https://yadi.sk/d/S-qrTNpy3Wo3pz

https://yadi.sk/d/lbbKWx2y3Wo4Ak

Pay attention to the endings: the first just shuts up , the second - a clear end to the process.
 

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Well, not Russian improvisation, but I was for a couple of years the photographer of a theatrical group and I was exposed to their shows and workshops which were based on the teachings of Eugenio Barba ( you may be familiar with the odin teatret ).

I don’t know what to think of the improvisations which you propose. They don’t strike me as of a great improvised content (although they may have been played “ In the moment”), they seem rather predictable progressions.

However, I suppose we have different idea about improvisation, and that’s good.

See how this gifted person starts with 4 notes and then “ reduces” them to a pattern she knows and has digested. That too is improvisation but not of the unpredictable nature as walking on a lack rope.


Walking on a slak rope is a combination of things you practice and things that happen “ In the moment” THAT you can’t practice, you will instantly need to respond to something that happens then and there.

I was always impressed with Hal Galper ( he talks about improvising fast and internalization )







You can of course prepare for the moment



By the way performing has ALWAYS element of being then and there
 

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I don’t know what to think of the improvisations which you propose. They don’t strike me as of a great improvised content (although they may have been played “ In the moment”), they seem rather predictable progressions.
I will not do such experiments with Hal Halper or Gary Burton - they play too well for this; but, as in this case, with the beginner, who never studied improvisation. You were looking in the wrong direction of "predictable progressions." It does not matter the quality of result, but a strong change in the process ; but exactly that you didn't hear. Over the past 40 years, my pedagogical intention has been to extract the best from the student that is inherent in him by nature, and not to prepare him for the 60 Minutes program. This is not a goal at all!
My workshop with children in the 90s. The pianist is also a beginner improviser:
https://soundcloud.com/jazzman1945/track (Mono)
 

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I wasn mentioning Hal Galper or Gary Burton because of their very different approach to teaching improvisation not about how good they are players.

Burton presents analytic improvisation, while Halper talks of intuitive approach.

I favor the intuitive approach.

Galper teaches this

https://www.jazzadvice.com/great-jazz-ears-how-to-get-a-vivid-aural-imagination/

let me extract a few points from what you can find there.

“ The extent to which your aural imagination is developed, largely determines: the quality of lines you play, how you play those lines (articulation, swing feel, inflection), and the sound you play with. Nothing has such an impact on your playing than your aural imagination. If there were a secret to improvising, developing your aural imagination would be it.....
When we go to improvise, we draw from a well of knowledge. This well is filled with things we’ve practiced, listened to, or studied theoretically. The stuff, though, that actually emerges during improvisation is the stuff that we can really hear....
Think of your instrument as an amplifier for your aural imagination. We spend so much time learning to play our instrument. We need to spend just as much time developing our internal instrument......
Developing your ability to retain larger and larger chunks of musical information in your mind will greatly raise your musicianship. The number one way to do this is transcribe without a pencil and paper in hand. I know what you’re thinking. How will I remember the line I’m working on once I go to the next line? Well, you won’t remember it permanently if you write it down...... “
 

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I wasn mentioning Hal Galper or Gary Burton because of their very different approach to teaching improvisation not about how good they are players.

Burton presents analytic improvisation, while Halper talks of intuitive approach.
I completely agree with you. Gary Burton is undoubtedly the most powerful teacher in Berklee, bringing up disciplined thinking. At the same time, I disagree with some of Galper’s statements, but this does not cancel his weight as a jazz educator.

Do you really want to develop ear and aural imagination? First, transfer your , and then someone else’s speech, to the instrument - as I did

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_AFJ7NPcEA

I am not familiar with any jazz education program using this method.
 

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aural imagination is what Hal Galper teaches

If you care to follow the link I gave above.

“ YOUR SOUND AND AURAL IMAGINATION

The actual sound, the tone you produce on your instrument is more greatly influenced by your aural imagination than anything else. Yes, I love my horn and mouthpiece, but I can pick up virtually anybody’s equipment and, despite the difficulty to play some people’s setups, still sound like me. I’ve had numerous lessons with incredible players, where they have tried my set-up and sounded exactly like themselves. Granted, they were not as comfortable on the foreign equipment, but their sound carried over.

It’s more clearly illustrated on a piano. Keeping the same piano, 10 different players could play the same line, one after another, and all play with their unique voice.

Our sound is in our mind and ear. Aim to hear the sound you desire in your mind. Focus on it. Meditate on it. Truly hear it. That’s how you’ll get closer to reproducing it. If you hear a quality in one of your hero’s sounds that you love and want to adopt into your playing, get it resonating in your skull. Hear it vividly. Let it play in your head throughout an entire day.

It’s like the scene in Shawshank Redemption when he was put in the hole. Andy (Tim Robbins) says:

“I had Mr. Mozart to keep me company…(points and taps to his head) It was in here. (Gestures over his heart) And in here. That’s the beauty of music. They can’t get that from you. Haven’t you ever felt that way about music?” “
 

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Galper teaches this

https://www.jazzadvice.com/great-jazz-ears-how-to-get-a-vivid-aural-imagination/

let me extract a few points from what you can find there.

“ The extent to which your aural imagination is developed, largely determines: the quality of lines you play, how you play those lines (articulation, swing feel, inflection), and the sound you play with. Nothing has such an impact on your playing than your aural imagination. If there were a secret to improvising, developing your aural imagination would be it.....
When we go to improvise, we draw from a well of knowledge. This well is filled with things we’ve practiced, listened to, or studied theoretically. The stuff, though, that actually emerges during improvisation is the stuff that we can really hear....
Think of your instrument as an amplifier for your aural imagination. We spend so much time learning to play our instrument. We need to spend just as much time developing our internal instrument......
Developing your ability to retain larger and larger chunks of musical information in your mind will greatly raise your musicianship. The number one way to do this is transcribe without a pencil and paper in hand. I know what you’re thinking. How will I remember the line I’m working on once I go to the next line? Well, you won’t remember it permanently if you write it down...... “
I am professional jazz teacher for 48 years, which requires to be aware of a variety of methodological concepts; therefore, your links are known to me earlier; and I get since 2013 a periodic email from Jazzadvice .This means that I carefully listen to others, but I do not accept this as a Torah from Sinai, but I process it for independent pedagogical searches. My pedagogical specialization doesn't teach a student to play like M. Brecker / O. Peterson / Bird / Monk; but to bring the student out of the zero stage of complete inability to improvise to a simple but conscious improvisation. But just here the advices of the above respected teachers is not suitable: these are mortars against sparrows. In the end, I came to the concept of preliminary synthesis of an improvisational melodic line with phrasing of native spoken language - this is exactly what you heard in recording of my pupil and didn't understand. There are no textbooks on this subject, however improvisation in African, Arab, Hindu and many other cultures originally contains this element. Suffice it to mention the representative instrument of African musical cultures - djembe, talking drum. By the way, I repeatedly wrote about this on this site, I do not remember where.
 

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I am professional jazz teacher for 48 years.

My pedagogical specialization doesn't teach a student to play like M. Brecker / O. Peterson / Bird / Monk; but to bring the student out of the zero stage of complete inability to improvise to a simple but conscious improvisation..
Very nice to hear, you certainly look a lot younger in your picture there :)!

Musical improvisation is many different things to many different people. When I re-started playing I went to a workshop which sought to teach people to play, each on their own instrument, as a singer does and without any previous knowledge of music.

Not to stereotype but I think this approach may be a particularly European thing?


I don’t think that these matters ( which refer to where the music and musicality comes from within the brain) are an European Thing, in fact, Professor Deutsch ( Psychology of music), English born, is an American University professor.

http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=218
http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=101

One of the last publications by the late ( and much missed) Oliver Saks ( English born too but an American professor) was Musicophilia, whom with this book touched many of the aspects of music and Psyche.

Where creativity , improvisation and music comes from , is not connected to a particular continent but an universal need to know among humans.

For those whom may not know who Oliver Saks was. (Pay particular attention about the part where he talks of a casus and the sudden rise of “ music in his head” ... )

 

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