[jth121]

I have an Indiana alto that I really like to play but have an issue changing from Bb to C# as there is no part of the C# key to slide my finger on when making this change.
Moving my finger across the linkage is inconsistent and I am looking for a solution or another saxophone.
I have been looking at pictures of the later model Imperial altos, top picture below, and they have a setup that, to me, looks more desirable. Looking at pictures, it looks like the rods and the posts are in the same location on the Imperial as the Indiana and I was wondering if anyone would know if the C# key/rod/cup would swap over from the Imperial to the Indiana with no or little modification? Martin built a bunch of the Indianas along with some Imperial and Medalists at the same time and the parts may be interchangeable. If this would work, I would need to start a post to find a parts horn or this individual C# key/rod/cup. I would like to keep playing this horn and this looks like it could be a solution.

 

[jth121]

Thank You for the reply. I had thought about doing what you have recommended, but was hoping for a simple solution even if it did mean shortening or spacing the rod to fit. Prior to this post, I had also considered modifying this key pretty much as described along with adding a post and roller from the Bb key placing it beside the B key similar to the Magna. This is work that I would do myself. I do not mind working on and doing things like this on my own horn and with it being of lower value, I would not even consider doing anything like this to equipment that is valuable or collectible. Per the reply, I do have this question. The reply had mentioned soft soldering the extension onto the key, I was of the understanding that on keys/rods/cups that these should be brazed due to the strength needed. Would soft soldering hold up under use if a key extension would be added to the key? I imagine that if I go this route, I could try to soft solder and if it breaks off, clean it up and redo by brazing.

 

[jth121]

This is great, Thank You all for the replies with help suggestions and JayeLID for taking the time and effort to do this for me. I will email you as mentioned to get more details to see how close it is to the keys on my alto. My horn has an 85K serial number from 1961. I can soft solder and braze, but I do not have much experience brazing brass. My torch is larger and even though I can adjust it down, brass heats up rapidly and things overheat quickly when brazing with an Ox/Ace torch. My experience is with steel bicycle frames, much different than a musical instrument.
Turf3, this is not a hollow tube, it is a long solid rod, not sure you could swage this.
I did not want to make this an in depth project, but I am willing to try some simple modifications. As I mentioned previously, I like this horn and it plays extremely well. I will update when I decide which way I decide to go.

 

[jth121]

Contact info sent to [email protected] and waiting for a reply.

...because your horn is the model it is, you probably have straight pivots, i.e. not pointed, just pegs

This is correct on this C# key with the solid brass rod

 

[jth121]

I am purchasing the key shown in post #6 above from JayeLID to modify the spatula keys as discussed. We have been in contact and if both of our measurements are correctly communicated and measured, the rod is 1mm longer than the rod on my horn and there is a 3.5mm difference at the top of the key comparing to the key on my horn. The distance between this key and the B key is 1.5mm closer on the replacement key also. We will see better what it looks like when it arrives here and I try to install it.

 

[jth121]

The key/rod/cup arrived today, Thank You JayeLID for this, he was excellent to work with. I disassembled this on my horn and installed this part to see where we were at and what needed to be modified. At the bottom, the cup lined up well and the spring just so reached the spring cradle. At the top there is about .5 to .75 mm gap at the rod end to post and this key slightly overlaps the B key. There is about a 3.5-4mm gap between this key at the top to the bottom of the G# key. See pictures for detail. Am thinking that as I move, bend, this key to be paralell and to clear the B key it will level the top with the bottom of the G# key and still maintain this same gap. The roller and roller rod from the existing key fits nicely. My thoughts were that it would be best to add an extension to the top of the C# key, but then thought that maybe an extension to the bottom of the G# key to take up this gap between these keys may work just as well and may be an easier solution having a larger key to attach the extension to and not having to mess with the roller hole. Unless someone has a reason not to do this, I may epoxy an extension to the bottom of the G# key to try and if this is suitable, and if so, make it permanent at a later time.

 

[jth121]

That's a pretty good result! This is based on incomplete information (the horn in front of me might change everything that follows), but here's what it looks like I would end up doing, having no DIY'er limitations:

Thank You for this, I read this and understand what you have described. I have had a few additional thoughts since posting the update earlier. I will consider this as option and since I cannot do anything else with this until the weekend, will gather additional thoughts and ideas and make the modification that makes the most sense to me with the least amount of modification or rework.

 

[jth121]

Thank You Pig Squealer for this suggestion. Thinking about this last night I had a similar idea. My thoughts were to adjust the key for clearance between this key and the B key to get the measurement needed to the desired spacing to the G# key. Then trim and square the top of the replacement rod accordingly. Since I have both the newer and the existing rods, use the top of the newer rod and the bottom of the existing rod cutting and brazing the rods together for the desired length. The issue with this is that if something goes south, both rods are done and now this project just became more difficult. That is where a sleeve as mentioned above could help out.
Moving the lower post may be easier after adjusting the top of the rod for the desired clearance between the keys. There are 2 other posts in that area and the joint for the bow, and I feel confident that I can do this, but I don't like to solder with so many things in close proximity.
If I knew for sure that I could hammer swage this rod to stretch as turf3 suggested, I would probably go this route. I have never done this before and am unsure how far this can be stretched and what it will look like when finished. Although this horn is not worth a lot, it is clean for its age and I would like to try to do this as clean and original looking as possible.
An observation while looking closer at this is that none of the rod ends on the existing key or the replacement key are square. The plating is not worn from the ends where they meet the posts, so it looks to be this way from factory. Also, one of the lower rod ends is drilled off center, so the cup moves in a slight eccentric movement. Someone at the Martin factory was having an off day 60 years ago.

 

[jth121]

I had a few minutes to mess around with this. This is what it looks like after a bit of adjusting. The .5-.75 mm gap in the rod in at the bottom for the picture and the gap between this key and the G# key is 3 to 3+ mm close to the B key and 1mm above the B key.

 

[jth121]

I'd hammer swage that rod a little longer (so it stays the way you've pushed it up for the picture) and declare victory. That table looks as well aligned as several of my horns that still have all their original parts.

Well, I tried that today over lunch with the upper part of the existing rod. Tapping lightly with an average size hammer did nothing except mar the finish, it did not get any longer. Using a larger hammer worked and I was able to lengthen the rod about 1.5-2mm as a test, but the finished rod had curved (which could be straightened) with the texture looking something like braided rope. This could be dressed up a bit, but Nope, that will not work for what I would like and I am glad I tried this on the older key first as a test. Heating it to orange color would probably have made this better but having the right tools to do this would have been the way to go.

 

[jth121]

Why not use the key cup end of the original part. That new upper section is looking pretty good. With the sleeve you could marry the two. Soft soldering should do.
That little adjustment looks like you’re almost there. Maybe trim half the distance ? Marry the two parts with the sleeve and you’re done.

Yup, my thoughts also. Either braze the rod directly or solder a sleeve as described. I would have to get some brass tube for a sleeve. The other option is to move the lower post a bit. I need to look and think about this some more.
Thank You all for the great feedback! I will post updates

 

[jth121]

I did more shoveling snow and painting than working on this over the weekend, but here is what I did do. To reduce the gap between this C# key and the G# key, I started trimming the top of the rod. I did notice that as this gap was getting closer, at the lower end, the arm to the cup was getting closer to the post for the B/Bb keys. I kept trimming the top of the rod until it was almost hitting this lower post and there was still 2mm between the C# and G# key. The gap at the bottom between the rod and post was now 3mm. I was planning on soldering an Extension on the lower rod from the existing rod to eliminate this gap. I tried bending the cup arm for more clearance, even building a jig to keep the rod from bending, but could not bend the cup arm without bending the small stub of a rod at the lower post. I tried heating it to bend to arm, but all this did was show silver at the braze joint where the arm meets the rod. At that point, with a 3mm gap at the bottom and unable to bend the cup arm the way I would have liked to, I heated and removed the arm and cup and went back up top and finished trimming the post so that the tops of the B and C# to G# keys were both 1mm. This looks good up top. My thoughts are now to use the top of the newer rod and the bottom of the existing rod with a joint somewhere in the middle. My choices are to braze a butt joint with silver or to solder with a brass sleeve. Either will be clearly seen. The sleeve would help with alignment and soldering may be cleaner, although I have no experience soldering onto nickel plating. Looking it up online there is a lot of conflicting information, no surprise there. Can I solder a brass sleeve to nickel or should the plating be removed first? If so, do I need a special flux and solder?

 

[jth121]

Looking at this a bit more since the previous post, I may be able to move the cup arm down the rod a bit more to clear the other post and braze it back on in the proper orientation. Then possibly solder the rod extension on the bottom to add length to the rod. I need to look into this a bit more.

 

[jth121]

This Project is now complete. I definitely took the long way around to get this done. I ended up moving the arm/cup lower on the rod from the replacement part off of the Imperial. I had to make a jig to get the key/cup orientation right and then brazed this together. Then I soldered a 3mm extension at the lower end of the rod to make up for the shorter rod due to trimming the rod at the top for the desired key clearances. I already had a new pad and spring to finish this. I must have overheated the end of the spring to flatten the end as when I tapped it with the hammer, the end broke into pieces and was then too short. I needed a longer spring from the original due to trimming the top and moving everything up. I used a lighter spring with more bend to get playing again until I can get the correct spring. I am pretty happy with the results and the transition between Bb and C# is so much nicer. If I had to do this again, I would use the original rod, arm and cup, and remove the key and braze the replacement key off the Imperial at the correct position. Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.

 

[jth121]

I have been playing this for a week now and really like the results from this project, it is a much easier transition between these keys. I ordered the correct replacement spring and am waiting for that to arrive to install. I overheated the first replacement spring with my torch making it brittle. Thanks PigSquealer for sharing your procedure on doing this.

 

[jth121]

OP finished the project back in February and has been playing the completed horn for 10 months now.

Yes, and very happy with the results of this project. The transition between these two keys is so much better.