[ptung]

I don't have one of each here so I can't answer the swapability question, but even if you do have a match -- just one horn to another -- chances are the pivot rods will be different lengths, which means the work to actually alter the C# keytouch to be more like what you want is not quite as much more labor as you might initially think than just "swapping" if that's possible.

You (meaning you if you have the DIY knowledge needed, or your tech if s/he/they do) could make that alteration simply by tooling a piece of brass to soft solder onto the original C# touch, and finishing it to your specs. You could even plan into that a wing, if you wanted and lengthen the roller to run the full length of the inside edge of the keytouch (this would actually be almost the simplest part of the alteration, because it would involve the simplest "sculpting").

MusicMedic has been doing this kind of alteration for quite some time. I would say go to them and pay a bit more before trying to save money with someone you don't know to be dependable. There was a notorious personality that did this kind of work on this board like 10 years ago. If you research that, you'll see why I say it's better to pay more for an outcome that is knowable than less for one that, really, isn't.

Good luck.

 

[ptung]

Thank You for the reply. I had thought about doing what you have recommended, but was hoping for a simple solution even if it did mean shortening or spacing the rod to fit. Prior to this post, I had also considered modifying this key pretty much as described along with adding a post and roller from the Bb key placing it beside the B key similar to the Magna. This is work that I would do myself. I do not mind working on and doing things like this on my own horn and with it being of lower value, I would not even consider doing anything like this to equipment that is valuable or collectible. Per the reply, I do have this question. The reply had mentioned soft soldering the extension onto the key, I was of the understanding that on keys/rods/cups that these should be brazed due to the strength needed. Would soft soldering hold up under use if a key extension would be added to the key? I imagine that if I go this route, I could try to soft solder and if it breaks off, clean it up and redo by brazing.

I've seen some DIY brass sculpting that was pretty good, but the main reason I suggest having a pro do the work is that (IMO, at a minimum) you should hard solder (silver solder) any extension additions, and silver soldering is more complicated, and better left to someone with experience with it, than soft soldering.

Yeah, even as I write and reread your post the idea of soft-soldering is more and more yucky to me.

IMO, professionally speaking, it's "wrong," as a consensus notion, but there are good reasons for that, primary among them that (1) someday someone may not know it's soft soldered, and put heat on it that melts your soft solder when, if they reasonably assumed correctly that it ought to be soft-soldered, they assumed wrongly, and (2) it's a high traffic, high-pressured spot usewise.

IMO no pro is going to tell you to soft-solder that, unless they don't give a **** what other pro's think of them or will say about them.

 

[ptung]

This is great, Thank You all for the replies with help suggestions and JayeLID for taking the time and effort to do this for me. I will email you as mentioned to get more details to see how close it is to the keys on my alto. My horn has an 85K serial number from 1961. I can soft solder and braze, but I do not have much experience brazing brass. My torch is larger and even though I can adjust it down, brass heats up rapidly and things overheat quickly when brazing with an Ox/Ace torch. My experience is with steel bicycle frames, much different than a musical instrument.
Turf3, this is not a hollow tube, it is a long solid rod, not sure you could swage this.
I did not want to make this an in depth project, but I am willing to try some simple modifications. As I mentioned previously, I like this horn and it plays extremely well. I will update when I decide which way I decide to go.

If you can soft solder the key, you can resolder the posts to move them to take up any space or to allow for more space.

If you just think about it logically, where this is possible without causing other problems, it's the best solution physically/mechanically in the majority of similar situations. Most people never think about this type of problem logically/rationally. They just regurgitate something someone else once said that they thought had "cred," but who was just doing the same because they figured that was safe and people would validate it (or because, more innocently, both just had no clue). That's life. 🤷‍♂️

 

[ptung]

(Counterskinking is a normal/traditional solution but a less than ideal one, because if you have a true shoulderless, pointed pivot when you countersink you'll produce a situation where the hinge tube can never be flush to the pillar again, without changing the hinge tube's inner status as well -- it makes a lot more sense to preserve the pivot/hole relationship and move the pillar, if that can be done without harming other relationships. People have been agreeing that countersinking is the way to go for years & years purely because it's consensus policy that nobody's bothered to question, which is totally bizarre. If you just think about it, and aren't mentally deficient, this kind of obvious; the thing is, apparently nobody has ever stopped to think about it. It actually isn't that big a deal to retool the hinge tube, and I wouldn't hesitate to do that myself, but IMO for a DIYer who is confident/competent in soft soldering in some other area, say a high skill plumber, moving the pillar makes more sense. To do the finer reworking and counterskinking, you need additional tools and some idea as to how to use them, and if you go wrong it's a lot more complicated than if you mess up on something where the basic technique is already familiar to you. I wouldn't recommend the same, necessarily, to someone who didn't say they were confident/comfortable with soft soldering.)

"But wait...there's more...." [lol edit follows hereafter]

Actually...(here is the edit, leaving the above because it has its own value, IMO)...because your horn is the model it is, you probably have straight pivots, i.e. not pointed, just pegs. In that case, it could come up that if you countersink you'll have to drill the pivot holes deeper (probably won't come up, but it could). In that case, the drilling involves a risk of hitting the sides of the existing "peg hole" while drilling, which could cause play to develop between the pivot "peg" and the hole, but counterskinking wouldn't produce the complication the parens above. Probably you do have a non-pointed pivot, based on the make/model.

 

[ptung]

@clarnibass Sure. But IMO you're only thinking of it from your perspective, not the DIYer or the customer (real or abstract). If it's a smaller addition, or one incurring less leverage, then there isn't a lot of concern as far as adhesion or non-flexion, but if someone is paying for work such as seems to be the topic, it's up to an hour of labor, maybe more, and to do it in a way where a future tech might accidentally unsolder the addition, where that wouldn't happen with silver solder -- so that the customer's earlier investment is wasted or undone -- just seems needlessly inconsiderate and stupid.

(Stupid because inconsiderate/unethical, due to lack of self-awareness, which is sort of my definition of "stupid.")

 

[ptung]

That's a pretty good result! This is based on incomplete information (the horn in front of me might change everything that follows), but here's what it looks like I would end up doing, having no DIY'er limitations:

• that gap is not quite big enough to make up the difference by bending, so probably I would shorten the upper tube slightly and then drill and reshape the hole for the pivot (make it deeper, maybe more than needed to make a small reservoir for lube while I'm in there anyway)
• after that, it might be possible to just move the lower post upward and bend the lower arm to get the cup where it needs to be. The cup arm could also be first unsoldered (silversoldering temp torch needed, butane alone or mapp alone will not do it), and then resoldered in a slightly lower position. It actually looks to me like that latter solution almost certainly would not be needed. Bending would probably in the end get you a cup position over the C# tonehole that is actually better than what you have now, i.e. without unsoldering/resoldering the arm. For the tube, you could also add a length of hinge tube at the bottom of the replacement tube (so that the hole key sits higher), which is arguably (arguably, since if you don't plate afterward, the repair will be visible as non-original, but your horn's not high price rung anyway, so....) not worse than the cosmetic effect of moving the post, done cleanly.

Good luck.

 

[ptung]

It may or may not be important to make sure your rod doesn't have any up/down play. Sometimes, an imperfect rod doesn't affect pad seating meaningfully, but very often it will, and you're talking about the pad above your low B and Bb, so if it leaks it will probably give you problems on those notes, and having play in the mechanism will invite those problems.

I think you already know and recognize this, jth, but it's worth underlining for people who will hit this thread in the future.

 

[ptung]

I would rather see the post moved than manipulated/knocked over some. My concern would be the pivot screw is no longer in line with the tube. Potential bind or rapid ware issues.

Exactly. But this is one area where a DIYer can probably do OK with something like "above average intelligence."

You can drill the hole with normal bits and a screwgun, but you need enough foresight to drill it smaller first, and to take into account that you want to do it (as a DIYer -- with better tools this changes slightly) so that the diameter of the hole never is large enough at any point that "matters" such that there is any lateral play when the key is mounted.

If the pivot were shouldered (it probably isn't, but if it were) a normal and a fine (latter meaning smaller diameter) set of hand files -- there is a name for the set that escapes me now, but the type that are used in mouthpiece work, for example -- can do what's necessary, used carefully and wisely (again in a way that avoids lateral play/looseness) in the final mounted position.

If you want consistent seating, lack of play/looseness to the greatest degree possible is of course the goal. Some horns with loose/sloppy mechanisms still play (because they manage to still seat) well. Others won't. Accidents of player technique no doubt have a role to play there, but obviously the goal is the smoothest operation possible without inconsistent movement.

 

[ptung]

Looking at this a bit more since the previous post, I may be able to move the cup arm down the rod a bit more to clear the other post and braze it back on in the proper orientation. Then possibly solder the rod extension on the bottom to add length to the rod. I need to look into this a bit more.

Please forgive me for just looking at the 1st two photos, and not yet reading posts in full (limited time at this moment/second). It looks like you're fine (good, really) and all you need to do is (1) alter the rod at the bottom, straighten the bends in the keyarm a bit overall -- which will lengthen it -- while repositioning things slightly to pass the other post and center the cup over the tonehole; or (2) move the post and then do the same second part. This is just based on those two photos, really, but that's all I need to see, personally.