Sax on the Web Forum banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi to all Buescher lovers , i've been playing my Buescher True Tone for about 30 years
now and looking for a second "backup" horn , so i've borrowed my friends Mark VI just to see if i would like it ...
here is a sound test recorded late at night , so i play quiet to not wake up neugbours ;)

1st recording is Selmer Mark VI 1969
2nd recording is Buescher True Tone 1928

mouthpiece: vintage metal Otto Link NY 10 * with Rico Royal v5 reed.

i am actually surpised that Selmer MKVI sounds very good - very rich complex tone.
(havent expected that) even though its brighter and quieter than my Buescher due to the more closed keys i guess?
My Buescher got more opened up keys and more bassines and projection in the sound therefore more loud.

would be nice to hear your opinions about these two very different sounding horns.

peace
jazz

http://soundcloud.com/shapkosound/sets/selmer-mark-vi-vs-buescher-1
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Hi,

Interesting experiment.
Lots of difference between the two saxes. As you say the Selmer has a rich sound that is wel balanced. The Buescher is more direct with more projection. For the kind of music you were playing the Selmer is much more at home. The Buescher would be very well suited for rock and roll or pop music. It is a matter of taste though. If you ask me I would go for the sound you get from the Selmer.
It would be interesting to hear what happens with another mpc and reed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
It's hard to make an apples too apples comparison based on the recordings because it sounds like the Buescher is panned more to the right where the Selmer is dead center. On the speakers I am using I really don't hear a ton of difference...both takes sound nice to me.
-Barry
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
14,429 Posts
Too subjective in my view. Still, I liked the sound of the TT much more than the VI. This does not surprise me since my '25 TT alto is the best sounding alto I've ever owned/played. DAVE
 

·
SOTW Columnist, Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
23,632 Posts
i am actually surpised that Selmer MKVI sounds very good - very rich complex tone.
(havent expected that)[/URL]
Not sure why that would surprise you. A rich complex tone is pretty characteristic for a VI. In any case you sound great on both those horns. I've never trusted sound clips for making horn comparisons, and I agree with Barrysax that, for some reason, it's hard to compare with the horns panned on different sides. The VI seems to have a bit more 'core' (man, I can't believe I'm using these terms, but don't know how else to say it), which is also characteristic for a VI.

I don't have a TT tenor, but I do have a series one Aristocrat and a 156 'Crat. The series one 'Crat is much closer to my MKVI, with a lot of that 'core' sound, whereas the later 'Crat has a much more 'open' sound, which I think I'm hearing on your TT. Then again what I just said could be a bunch of bs. It's all so subjective.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2013-
Joined
·
5,183 Posts
I'll join the chorus that says it is really hard to tell from sound clips, but not to my surprise I have a slight preference for the Buescher. I like your sound on both.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian
Joined
·
7,153 Posts
As you say the Selmer has a rich sound that is wel balanced. The Buescher is more direct with more projection. For the kind of music you were playing the Selmer is much more at home. The Buescher would be very well suited for rock and roll or pop music. It is a matter of taste though.
It sure is. The stereotype of these horns is about 180° from where you hear them - typically the VI is heard as projecting and the T-T as rich.

I wonder if jazz sax tone is becoming a narrower concept as jazz becomes more of a niche music - that certain sounds are no longer considered jazz-appropriate, where once it might not have been such an issue.

That said - jazzroom's tone concept comes thru substantially intact on both horns. Any meaningful differences would be audible mostly to him as the player.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
18,575 Posts
You sound great on both horns, uncle Ben would be proud :). Not much differences on my cheap labtop speakers, the VI seems a bit more focussed compared to the TT, but my guess is that not many people in front of the horn will hear the difference. You and the mouthpiece/reed combination are the main factor.

I recently compared >here< a Selmer BA of 1938 with a SBA of 1952 and a SA80 of 1983 (also with a vintage Link 10*). Much more differences between the horns in my clips.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It's hard to make an apples too apples comparison based on the recordings because it sounds like the Buescher is panned more to the right where the Selmer is dead center. On the speakers I am using I really don't hear a ton of difference...both takes sound nice to me.
-Barry
hmm, i actually panned selmer 33% to the left and buescher 33% to the right ...
but, to make things more clear i will post just the sax samples tomorrow.
and will also try to run another sound test on a different type of a tune and style of Jazz.
will keep you all posted.
P.S. my whole point of making these tests is just to convince myself ( and only myself)
that i CAN have another "backup horn" other than Buescher True Tone that i LOVE to much ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You sound great on both horns, uncle Ben would be proud :). Not much differences on my cheap labtop speakers, the VI seems a bit more focussed compared to the TT, but my guess is that not many people in front of the horn will hear the difference. You and the mouthpiece/reed combination are the main factor.

I recently compared >here< a Selmer BA of 1938 with a SBA of 1952 and a SA80 of 1983 (also with a vintage Link 10*). Much more differences between the horns in my clips.
Hi Mr. PeeBee, bedankt voor je leuke reaktie :) thanks for your reply and - wow you've got some really great horns in your collection !
i 've been playing one an d the same horn for the last 30+ years Buescher True Tone 1928 and
recently looking for a "backup" tenor that is why i am running these "tests".

i will try to run more sound tests on ballads and up tempo tunes in variety of jazz styles.

will keep you'll posted.

peace
jazz

P.S. ik spreek nederlands (heb in amsterdam voor 10 jaar gewoond in de moje tijden)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Not sure why that would surprise you. A rich complex tone is pretty characteristic for a VI. In any case you sound great on both those horns. I've never trusted sound clips for making horn comparisons, and I agree with Barrysax that, for some reason, it's hard to compare with the horns panned on different sides. The VI seems to have a bit more 'core' (man, I can't believe I'm using these terms, but don't know how else to say it), which is also characteristic for a VI.



I don't have a TT tenor, but I do have a series one Aristocrat and a 156 'Crat. The series one 'Crat is much closer to my MKVI, with a lot of that 'core' sound, whereas the later 'Crat has a much more 'open' sound, which I think I'm hearing on your TT. Then again what I just said could be a bunch of bs. It's all so subjective.
i totally agree with you - on these recordings its not very clear what IS the tone difference,
'cause i've been playing extremely soft and very closed to a mic ( 4AM at night) ;)
but i've just came back from a gig where i've been testing the borrowed Mark VI ( my Buescher is gone to a sax doctor till saturday )
and i've been having a hard time to project my sound in the room as that Mark VI seems to have a more closed keys heights opening than my very opened up keys on the Buescher TT that can blow away ANY room without need for a mic.... Selmer Mark VI after Buescher TT feels like an obstacle and not as open and free blowing
as i am used to.. but i guess it can be improved?
that sad,
i wonder if its possible to adjust "open up" the keys height on the Mark VI
to have more projection and sound volume
without sacrificing the intonation to much,
as ajusted on my Buescher TT,
anyone done that ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Too subjective in my view. Still, I liked the sound of the TT much more than the VI. This does not surprise me since my '25 TT alto is the best sounding alto I've ever owned/played. DAVE
Buescher TT doesnt limit me to any sound , i can shape any sound i've got in my head ...
but Selmer Mark VI is more "predefined" type of sound.
even though it seems rich in harmonics and more bright when played softly ..
Selmer MKVI sound seems more "reserved" and almost "inside" the horn ... maybe due to the key openings height ( very low) on Selmer,
while my Buescher has all keys opened up to the extreme ....:bluewink:

again, this "test" is far from being objective
as i need to record more diverse musical material , style and tempo wise ( long straight notes, fast runs, , altissimo, etc)
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
You certainly can't tell from these recordings. You're playing in a subtone the entire time. One sounds spitty out of the left speaker, the other less so out of the right.

Have to push these a bit more to hear tonal differences, but you can see from my sig which I prefer. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You certainly can't tell from these recordings. You're playing in a subtone the entire time. One sounds spitty out of the left speaker, the other less so out of the right.

Have to push these a bit more to hear tonal differences, but you can see from my sig which I prefer. :)
yes, this test was played in subtone.
but I def will record more diverse material asap as my Buescher will b back from the tech.
though I can still hear much more high frequencies and mids in Selmer sound .
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
18,575 Posts
Hi Mr. PeeBee, bedankt voor je leuke reaktie :) thanks for your reply and - wow you've got some really great horns in your collection !
i 've been playing one an d the same horn for the last 30+ years Buescher True Tone 1928 and
recently looking for a "backup" tenor that is why i am running these "tests".

i will try to run more sound tests on ballads and up tempo tunes in variety of jazz styles.

will keep you'll posted.

peace
jazz

P.S. ik spreek nederlands (heb in amsterdam voor 10 jaar gewoond in de moje tijden)
Hi Jazz, the BA was a friends horn, but both the SBA (main horn) and SA80 (backup horn) are mine. Looking forward to your other clips (if I can find time, will leave for holiday this evening). Je spreekt erg goed Nederlands, leuk! :).

...Selmer Mark VI after Buescher TT feels like an obstacle and not as open and free blowing as i am used to.. but i guess it can be improved? that sad, i wonder if its possible to adjust "open up" the keys height on the Mark VI to have more projection and sound volume without sacrificing the intonation to much, as ajusted on my Buescher TT, anyone done that ?
I asked my tech to open up the key heights of my SBA to the max some years ago, based on the advice of Dutch pro tenor player Rinus Groeneveld (he plays a Buescher 400 with a very big sound, you might know him from your Amsterdam time). After that my horn changed from mellow medium loud to spread and quite loud (the Buescher of Rinus still has higher keys). Eeach horn has it's own limits for max key heights, I guess your tech should be able to check that out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hi Jazz, the BA was a friends horn, but both the SBA (main horn) and SA80 (backup horn) are mine. Looking forward to your other clips (if I can find time, will leave for holiday this evening). Je spreekt erg goed Nederlands, leuk! :).



I asked my tech to open up the key heights of my SBA to the max some years ago, based on the advice of Dutch pro tenor player Rinus Groeneveld (he plays a Buescher 400 with a very big sound, you might know him from your Amsterdam time). After that my horn changed from mellow medium loud to spread and quite loud (the Buescher of Rinus still has higher keys). Eeach horn has it's own limits for max key heights, I guess your tech should be able to check that out.
Yes , I know Rinus very well he is an old friend om mine , my brother Serge Shapko still plays with him on bass - small world ;)

I can't open up the key heights on that Selmer Marl VI as it's not mine -
I've just borrowed it from a friend to see if I'd like Mark VI at all , since I am looking for a second vintage tenor.

I've also noticed that there is less room on the Selmer for the max keys opening than on the Buescher TT where you cam open them up to much if you're not careful ;)

Do u know anyone selling BA or SBA or old Mark VI in Holland - I will come to test it?
Prettige vacantie en tot snel :)
Have a great Holiday !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
591 Posts
Hi to all Buescher lovers , i've been playing my Buescher True Tone for about 30 years
now and looking for a second "backup" horn , so i've borrowed my friends Mark VI just to see if i would like it ...
here is a sound test recorded late at night , so i play quiet to not wake up neugbours ;)

1st recording is Selmer Mark VI 1969
2nd recording is Buescher True Tone 1928

mouthpiece: vintage metal Otto Link NY 10 * with Rico Royal v5 reed.

i am actually surpised that Selmer MKVI sounds very good - very rich complex tone.
(havent expected that) even though its brighter and quieter than my Buescher due to the more closed keys i guess?
My Buescher got more opened up keys and more bassines and projection in the sound therefore more loud.

would be nice to hear your opinions about these two very different sounding horns.

peace
jazz

http://soundcloud.com/shapkosound/sets/selmer-mark-vi-vs-buescher-1
Now that's a sound I'd really love to hear at late hours around my neighborhood! Really nice!

I really like the clarity of the Buescher. Maybe the VI was also a bit leaky?

BTW what mic are you using?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
18,575 Posts
Yes , I know Rinus very well he is an old friend om mine , my brother Serge Shapko still plays with him on bass - small world ;)
Small world indeed :)! Rinus is a friend of mine too. We will play together in a small cafe August 9th. Serge lives 6 km from my place, but doesn't play bass anymore in the groups with Rinus, Hans Ruigrok is his bassist now, also from Amsterdam).

Do u know anyone selling BA or SBA or old Mark VI in Holland - I will come to test it?
Prettige vacantie en tot snel :)
Have a great Holiday !
Thanks! I don't know for BA or SBA's for sale at this moment, but will let you know when I see one.
 

·
SOTW Columnist, Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
23,632 Posts
I've just borrowed it from a friend to see if I'd like Mark VI at all , since I am looking for a second vintage tenor.
From all you've said so far here, especially your experience on the gig (where it counts most), why don't you look for another Buescher as a backup (or alternate) horn? I'd suggest a series one Aristocrat or one of the "Big B" line of Aristos. You'd save yourself a lot of money, too, in comparison with buying a VI. Get another Buescher in tip-top shape, or get one and have it overhauled, and you'll have a another great horn at less than half the price of VI.

Just a thought.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
820 Posts
I agree with JL. If you like that big, bold sound, try a Buescher 156 Aristocrat from the early 1950's. These are great horns that should appeal to you immediately. Even if you had to pay for an overhaul, you could get four 156 tenors for what a VI would cost you, and I am certain that you would prefer the 156 over the VI.
Sax Magic
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top