[hiddenlotus]

Hello! I recently purchased a Selmer Serie III and after doing research, including this forum, I've noticed that a large amount of responses were that one should push the mouthpiece to the point where 1/16th of the cork is left. Also, a great amount of responses state that the "warble" on the lower stack is caused by having the mouthpiece on an incorrect position. My issue is that when I push the mouthpiece to that point, the horn begins to play sharp which causes me to think that I'm fundamentally doing something incorrect.

When I move the mouthpiece back on the cork, this causes the warble.

Any tips?

 

[leycroft]

Check your pitch on mouthpiece and reed alone concert C is mostly the desired result .

 

[Dr G]

Is this your first experience playing soprano?

What mouthpiece are you using?

The amount of cork showing is arbitrary - I don’t recall EVER seeing “leave 1/16 of the cork showing” on a Serie III soprano.

FWIW, I used to own a Serie III, and intonation was not an issue, nor was a warble. I used several different mouthpieces that all worked well: Selmer Soloist, Barone HR, Barone silver Hollywood, and Lamberson Fmaj7. That horn was stable down to the low Bb at any volume.

When do you experience the warble?

 

[JakeLampe]

Warble is definitely not a mouthpiece position issue, but is likely a voicing issue possibly exasperated by a leak. As Dr. G said amount of visible cork is arbitrary, and that is true because there is no 'industry standard' cork size that is fitted to the neck, so 1/16th" visible on one neck likely does not equal 1/16th on another neck.

For helping nail down the correct voicing you'll want to do some venting exercises. As an example play a middle C, then finger a low C but maintain the same exact note by playing the first overtone of that low C. If the normal fingering (LH 2) is sharper, then you may be pushed in too far, if flat then you may be pulled out too far. The reason I say 'may be' is because the voicing of your air (shape defined by throat position) will influence this, so it's possible to overcome the natural tuning if the voicing is off too far.

As you make mouthpiece adjustments based on that overtone exercise and then do some scales to the upper range of the horn you'll get a better idea as to where you are. Since soprano sax tends to be the highest pitched sax in the family most people play (unless you are coming from Clarinet, or maybe Oboe) the most common thing is that the voicing of the air is shaped to fit a lower pitched instrument.

If you try these things and aren't sure of what you need to do I would suggest providing a recording so we can hear, I think many of the experienced players here could better advise you on how to correct what might be happening from that rather than a verbal description of what is happening.

I am also a Series III Soprano owner, and at least in my experience (I use the curved neck fyi) this is a well balanced, and in tune horn when aligned properly and fed with an accurate voicing.

Specific to leaks, common places are the bis pad under the LH 2 finger, or the smaller Bb pad just below it not fully closing. Also G# is a good thing to check when on a very low note - low C#, B, and Bb actuate the G# mechanism so if the adjustment screw that holds the G# down is not secure that is a common leak point.

-_/

 

[DaveR]

I play soprano professionally and I have had two Selmer Series 3 sopranos. Both had a tendency to warble, but my first one was much worse than the one I now have.

Of course, if you push the mouthpiece onto the cork as far as you can this problem will disappear, but as you have realized, this leaves you very sharp in pitch indeed.
This issue can be ameliorated by a really good set-up: particularly if you attend to the fit of the neck into the tenon, which can be very shoddy direct from the factory. But, in my experience the S3 soprano is prone to this problem and it's not just a case of voicing (although good soprano voicing and proper embouchure are fundamental, of course). It's something you have to pay close attention to, the air support, throat cavity and lip position as you diminuendo in the lower register. I have also found that larger bore mouthpieces can help this problem (as they tend to sit further on the cork), but then you have to deal with the reduced security in pitch that goes hand in hand with larger bore soprano pieces.

It seems madly counter intuitive that a Selmer soprano, built for small bore mouthpieces like the Selmer and Vandoren, would have this tendency. But there you go. There has been much discussion about this problem already on SOTW, with as many players saying they don't have the problem as those that do.

I have found that the problem is more pronounced when the neck is full of condensation; if I then swab the neck it improves.

I also have a Sequoia Lemon soprano, which plays perfectly securely in the lower register with none of this issue.

 

[Jazz House]

I also remember reading about the Series III requiring the mouthpiece to be pushed in very far.

The other users all say great things: eliminate any leaks, check your voicing, check lip pressure etc..

I'll add one more element. Often I find that if my reed is a little too hard, this will cause me to bite harder and will raise the pitch.

It's a little hard to 'solve' the problem without knowing how experienced the OP is and hearing a recording, but any of the things suggested could be a solution.

 

[Saxtripper]

If you measure the length of a Selmer Series III soprano saxophone from the neck cork down to the end of the bell you will see the Series III is about 1/2 inch longer in length than a Yamaha YSS-62 or a Selmer Mark VI soprano. This is why you need to shove the mouthpiece down more than usual. IMO the Selmer Series III soprano was designed too long and this may be the cause of your problem.

 

[J Dos Passos]

The Selmer Series III soprano is longer than most sopranos. I also own one. Yes, the mouthpiece should be pushed on completely or almost completely. If you are then playing very sharp, it is likely because the mouthpiece has problems ( chamber size, facing curve) and/or you are biting. It only takes a little of either to raise the pitch substantially and both problems combined make it more likely, even in small degrees.

 

[hiddenlotus]

Hello!

No, I've been playing soprano for about 4 years now.

I alternate between the Selmer Concept and Selmer S90 .180 facing.

I've seen this solution called for on many threads in regards to this issue. Maybe because the threads are a least 10 years old?

I've been considering changing my setup after discussing this issue with my instructor. This "warble" happens most consistently while playing the lower stack (F-D) at a softer dynamic.

 

[hiddenlotus]

What mouthpiece would you recommend?

 

[hiddenlotus]

Is this your first experience playing soprano?

What mouthpiece are you using?

The amount of cork showing is arbitrary - I don't recall EVER seeing "leave 1/16 of the cork showing" on a Serie III soprano.

FWIW, I used to own a Serie III, and intonation was not an issue, nor was a warble. I used several different mouthpieces that all worked well: Selmer Soloist, Barone HR, Barone silver Hollywood, and Lamberson Fmaj7. That horn was stable down to the low Bb at any volume.

When do you experience the warble?

Hello!

No, I've been playing soprano for about 4 years now.

I alternate between the Selmer Concept and Selmer S90 .180 facing.

I've seen this solution called for on many threads in regards to this issue. Maybe because the threads are a least 10 years old?

I've been considering changing my setup after discussing this issue with my instructor. This "warble" happens most consistently while playing the lower stack (F-D) at a softer dynamic.

 

[hiddenlotus]

The Selmer Series III soprano is longer than most sopranos. I also own one. Yes, the mouthpiece should be pushed on completely or almost completely. If you are then playing very sharp, it is likely because the mouthpiece has problems ( chamber size, facing curve) and/or you are biting. It only takes a little of either to raise the pitch substantially and both problems combined make it more likely, even in small degrees.

What mouthpiece would you recommend?

 

[hiddenlotus]

I play soprano professionally and I have had two Selmer Series 3 sopranos. Both had a tendency to warble, but my first one was much worse than the one I now have.

Of course, if you push the mouthpiece onto the cork as far as you can this problem will disappear, but as you have realized, this leaves you very sharp in pitch indeed.
This issue can be ameliorated by a really good set-up: particularly if you attend to the fit of the neck into the tenon, which can be very shoddy direct from the factory. But, in my experience the S3 soprano is prone to this problem and it's not just a case of voicing (although good soprano voicing and proper embouchure are fundamental, of course). It's something you have to pay close attention to, the air support, throat cavity and lip position as you diminuendo in the lower register. I have also found that larger bore mouthpieces can help this problem (as they tend to sit further on the cork), but then you have to deal with the reduced security in pitch that goes hand in hand with larger bore soprano pieces.

It seems madly counter intuitive that a Selmer soprano, built for small bore mouthpieces like the Selmer and Vandoren, would have this tendency. But there you go. There has been much discussion about this problem already on SOTW, with as many players saying they don't have the problem as those that do.

I have found that the problem is more pronounced when the neck is full of condensation; if I then swab the neck it improves.

I also have a Sequoia Lemon soprano, which plays perfectly securely in the lower register with none of this issue.

I have a tendency to slightly bite which I'm currently trying to shake, but it is definitely reassuring to understand that it isn't just me.
Do you find yourself using your S3? I'm considering selling it and looking to go with another brand.

 

[Grumps]

For a straight soprano to warble down low at certain nodes given the placement of the mouthpiece, it could very well be a leak at the neck connection if not the faulty design. Detachable necks for sopranos are terrible ideas and wholly unnecessary. If it's gotta be Selmer, trade it for a II.

 

[hiddenlotus]

Warble is definitely not a mouthpiece position issue, but is likely a voicing issue possibly exasperated by a leak. As Dr. G said amount of visible cork is arbitrary, and that is true because there is no 'industry standard' cork size that is fitted to the neck, so 1/16th" visible on one neck likely does not equal 1/16th on another neck.

For helping nail down the correct voicing you'll want to do some venting exercises. As an example play a middle C, then finger a low C but maintain the same exact note by playing the first overtone of that low C. If the normal fingering (LH 2) is sharper, then you may be pushed in too far, if flat then you may be pulled out too far. The reason I say 'may be' is because the voicing of your air (shape defined by throat position) will influence this, so it's possible to overcome the natural tuning if the voicing is off too far.

As you make mouthpiece adjustments based on that overtone exercise and then do some scales to the upper range of the horn you'll get a better idea as to where you are. Since soprano sax tends to be the highest pitched sax in the family most people play (unless you are coming from Clarinet, or maybe Oboe) the most common thing is that the voicing of the air is shaped to fit a lower pitched instrument.

If you try these things and aren't sure of what you need to do I would suggest providing a recording so we can hear, I think many of the experienced players here could better advise you on how to correct what might be happening from that rather than a verbal description of what is happening.

I am also a Series III Soprano owner, and at least in my experience (I use the curved neck fyi) this is a well balanced, and in tune horn when aligned properly and fed with an accurate voicing.

Specific to leaks, common places are the bis pad under the LH 2 finger, or the smaller Bb pad just below it not fully closing. Also G# is a good thing to check when on a very low note - low C#, B, and Bb actuate the G# mechanism so if the adjustment screw that holds the G# down is not secure that is a common leak point.

-_/

Thank you for your great response! I'm really appreciative of the advice.

I'll definitely use that approach to attain the correct voicing. I often switch between alto and soprano, with a hint of tenor during marching band rehearsals, voicing comes much more naturally to me on alto and tenor than soprano. What would you recommend as it pertains to embouchure?

I've noticed that while applying normal pressure to RH 1 and 2, the pads are still ever so slightly open. With additional force, that I wouldn't normally use, the pads fully close. I can definitely say that my playing ability far surpasses my ability to discern whether an instrument needs adjustment, but I'm sure this isn't helping the problem..

 

[Dr G]

Hello!

No, I've been playing soprano for about 4 years now.

I alternate between the Selmer Concept and Selmer S90 .180 facing.

I've seen this solution called for on many threads in regards to this issue. Maybe because the threads are a least 10 years old?

I've been considering changing my setup after discussing this issue with my instructor. This "warble" happens most consistently while playing the lower stack (F-D) at a softer dynamic.

Welcome, HiddenLotus.

When I see that you have the warble so high up on the horn, it draws my attention to several things: airstream and support, tenon fit, leaks, and regulation.

Has your instructor played your horn?

I am interested to hear from others whom experienced warble on their Serie III sops, under what conditions the warble appears.

 

[Dr G]

I've noticed that while applying normal pressure to RH 1 and 2, the pads are still ever so slightly open. With additional force, that I wouldn't normally use, the pads fully close. I can definitely say that my playing ability far surpasses my ability to discern whether an instrument needs adjustment, but I'm sure this isn't helping the problem..

You and I were typing simultaneously - that RH1 and 2 is exactly what I am talking about. A leak in the middle of the horn is going to affect everything below it. Get your horn corrected before changing your mouthpiece or anything else.

 

[Alain Gen]

Thank you for your great response! I'm really appreciative of the advice.

I'll definitely use that approach to attain the correct voicing. I often switch between alto and soprano, with a hint of tenor during marching band rehearsals, voicing comes much more naturally to me on alto and tenor than soprano. What would you recommend as it pertains to embouchure?

I've noticed that while applying normal pressure to RH 1 and 2, the pads are still ever so slightly open. With additional force, that I wouldn't normally use, the pads fully close. I can definitely say that my playing ability far surpasses my ability to discern whether an instrument needs adjustment, but I'm sure this isn't helping the problem..

From the end of this post, you have regulation leaks in the right hand stack. Pay a visit to a good tech.

 

[DaveR]

Thank you for your great response! I'm really appreciative of the advice.

I'll definitely use that approach to attain the correct voicing. I often switch between alto and soprano, with a hint of tenor during marching band rehearsals, voicing comes much more naturally to me on alto and tenor than soprano. What would you recommend as it pertains to embouchure?

I've noticed that while applying normal pressure to RH 1 and 2, the pads are still ever so slightly open. With additional force, that I wouldn't normally use, the pads fully close. I can definitely say that my playing ability far surpasses my ability to discern whether an instrument needs adjustment, but I'm sure this isn't helping the problem..

If the instrument isn't in proper working order that will definitely have an impact!

My feeling is that soprano needs a different approach to either alto or tenor (which ideally need different approaches to each other themselves!). Soprano really doesn't function optimally with a relaxed embouchure and the open-throat approach that people advocate for the lower horns. In order to achieve the full range of the soprano up to top F# and beyond, I need a much firmer embouchure and a correspondingly firmer reed. Having said that I play a #6 tip with a #3 Java reed - so not a hard set-up at all - and I can get everything I need with that. I know players who use much more radical set-ups at the more open end, like a #12, but they have a very particular sound in mind and are very experienced indeed.

There is no real way of short-cutting soprano technique beyond a lot of practice. Over time the lip strengthens and the larynx adjusts to allow the soprano's pitch to resonate as the instrument optimally wants to, but a sure sign is tuning and the stability of the pitches from D3 upwards. @leycroft's advice above to play the mouthpiece alone and generate the pitch 'C' is bang on the nail. By generating a 'C' your whole throat/lip combination will be in the right area for the instrument. The exact position of the larynx is crucial. In other words, a voicing that gives you a good top F# say on tenor will not be right for soprano.

 

[hiddenlotus]

Welcome, HiddenLotus.

When I see that you have the warble so high up on the horn, it draws my attention to several things: airstream and support, tenon fit, leaks, and regulation.

Has your instructor played your horn?

I am interested to hear from others whom experienced warble on their Serie III sops, under what conditions the warble appears.

He has played on my horn previously, but he doesn't face the same issues. I know for a fact that he uses a more "aggressive" air stream than myself, he's a jazz saxophonist.