[Rojarosguitar]

Hello, as I discussed in other posts, I decided to play bass clarinet as well (until now played as,ts, ss).

I got a Yamaha YCL221 II with a Selmer Concept MP (I compared several mouthpieces and liked the Selmer best).

Here are my first questions:

1) I can play the first one and a half octaves (counted from the lowest Eb on). In the middle register (as I would call it in lack of a better term) The tones are not especially stable and not easy to play... is that an embouchure problem or a wrong reed choice? Or key adjustment problem? (I thought if it was a leaking problem it would show itself especially in the low register, which is not at all the case).

2) I have Vandoren V16 2.5 Bass Clarinet reeds, everything else I have are tenor sax reeds (they seem to work OK, but I'm not sure of their disadvantages). So what about using tenor sax reeds?

3) Especially with the Selmer Concept Mouthpiece, what would be a good starting point for reeds strength and brand? Should I go more soft from the Vandoren V16 2.5 or does it need stronger reeds?

4) better playing sitting with the stick or using a strap?

Thanks for advice in advance (sorry if I wasn't too clear with clarinet terms)
Robert

 

[Isle of Jazz]

1. "Voicing" the clarion register (middle) commonly gives new players the most difficulty. I strongly suggest that you read over Ed Palanker's articles on playing the bass. The answers to many of your questions can be found there.

2. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with using tenor reeds...if you can achieve good tone and response. As a beginner, though, I'd stick to bass clarinet reeds, just to cut down on the variables. When you get more experience you can experiment. (I've had pretty good luck using 3½ Légère Studio Cut tenor reeds, recently moving up from 3's.)

3. I have never played a "Concept" but, in general, 2½'s are a good place to start, especially with the moderately open tip on the Concept. I know at least one pro,Mike Lowenstern, who uses 2½'s.

4. I use both the peg and a strap, a "belt and suspenders" approach. The peg relieves all the weight and the strap is really useful - you can adjust your music without worrying about balancing your bass and it helps to stabilize your embouchure when you're playing in the altissimo.

You should get a stand for your bass and be very careful when assembling and disassembling so as not to bend or distort the long rods. Taking up the bass has been one of the best decisions I ever made; it's a very versatile and rewarding instrument.

 

[Alphorn]

I wouldn‘t call the Concept moderately open. Checking the Vandoren range for comparison the Concept has the same opening as the BD50 which is the most open piece. 2,5 seems about right but is dependent in the reed model eg Vandoren Blue tend to be hard and I would try 2 with those.

Alphorn

 

[lomaserena]

Yamaha is a good choice. I don't know the Selmer Concept. Another poster describes it as open, and open mouthpieces on bass can cause control problems in the upper register as you describe. Not at all the same as sax.
But if your instrument has leaks, you may be able to play the lowest register reasonably well, but when you reach the clarion (above the break), you can have all sorts of problems. Basses are extremely sensitive to leaks. Voicing is important as well, but voicing problems usually start nearer the top of the staff. The voicing on bass is perhaps more like sax than soprano clarinet, and you're a sax player, so I'm guessing it might be leaks, but you might try a more closed mouthpiece first to see if your upper register improves.
I'm not familiar with V16 reeds (I use Vandoren Traditional) but 2.5 might be OK as a starting point. Wouldn't hurt to try a 2 as well, but don't fall in love with the big, buzzy sound you can get in the low register. You want a reed that plays reasonably well in all registers. Bass clarinet reeds have a different profile than tenor reeds, but lots of players seem to be fine using tenor reeds on bass. I use Vandoren Traditional 3 (bass clarinet only) on a 1.70 Fobes mouthpiece.
I use a peg, and if I'm playing difficult music (Ravel, R. Strauss, etc.) I'll use a neckstrap as well for stability. I don't like to use both all the time. Too restrictive.

 

[Nordbo]

Like you, I play the Yamaha YCL221 II with the Selmer concept mpc. I use blue box Vandoren 2½. I don't think there's anything wrong with you setup.
However, careful voicing is required when playing B (first note with register key) and up. You just have to practice . .
I use both peg and (slack) neckstrap. I have replaced the original thumbrest with a hook that prevents the horn falling forward when playing G (no keys pressed) and C (only register key pressed). I use the neckstrap so I can rest the horn against a leg so I can use both hands to change music sheets etc.
\Bo

 

[Rojarosguitar]

Many thanks for your helpful advice. I'm aware that there is a lot to learn and I can see (or better hear) the effects of practice clearly. I hope the instrument being new it doesn't leak. At least I can't see anything grave using an inspection light. I will try Vandoren 2. As to closer mouthpiece: the Yamaha 4C that was included with the instrument is clearly less open than the Selmer (and also sounds not bad at all) doesn't help much with the clarion register, so I guess it's mainly my embouchure that needs to be refined...

 

[Lambros]

yes, it's important to realize that bass clarinet has a fairly long learning curve and it helps to play standard Bb soprano clarinet as well. What you may invariably discover is that clarinets play very differently than saxophones, this can't be stressed enough.

Many thanks for your helpful advice. I'm aware that there is a lot to learn and I can see (or better hear) the effects of practice clearly. I hope the instrument being new it doesn't leak. At least I can't see anything grave using an inspection light. I will try Vandoren 2. As to closer mouthpiece: the Yamaha 4C that was included with the instrument is clearly less open than the Selmer (and also sounds not bad at all) doesn't help much with the clarion register, so I guess it's mainly my embouchure that needs to be refined...

 

[Rojarosguitar]

yes, it's important to realize that bass clarinet has a fairly long learning curve and it helps to play standard Bb soprano clarinet as well. What you may invariably discover is that clarinets play very differently than saxophones, this can't be stressed enough.

I got that idea, too, and got the soprano Bb clarinet as well; it helps to get the fingerings organized faster. Strangely enough the clarion register on the soprano isn't that difficult... for altissimo I have to memorize the fingerings first ...
Thanks again!

 

[Saxhound]

Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a small octave vent hole on the key you play with your left index finger. If you don't keep it covered, it is nearly impossible to play in the clarion register. When I first started, I found that when I was reaching for the pinky keys with my left hand, I would sometimes slide my index finger enough to uncover the hole. On something like the middle of the staff B, that would result in an awful squawk.

 

[Lambros]

The key is understanding that bass clarinet is exponentially more demanding than Bb soprano because of its physical dimensions. Keep at it and practice arpeggios that combine the chalumeau with the clarion and altissimo registers. Keep your focus on the middle C and tackle the asymmetrical juxtaposition of your next C in the clarion which is fingered just as low C is on sax. I play a low C horn and habitually play the full arpeggio patterns that unite all of the ranges. Mix in all of your open 4th sounds along with your augmented, diminished and whole tone chops, too. It's very satisfying to play the full range and like you said, it's just a matter of finding your way around and dealing with the physical aspects of it.

I got that idea, too, and got the soprano Bb clarinet as well; it helps to get the fingerings organized faster. Strangely enough the clarion register on the soprano isn't that difficult... for altissimo I have to memorize the fingerings first ...
Thanks again!

 

[dirty]

The bass clarinet is a fun instrument to learn, since it's quite straightforward to get a mostly acceptable sound in the low register, but it's challenging to really get fluent on, IMO. It really requires you to learn how to voice. You need a fairly arched back-of-the-tongue position compared to a sax, but a little lower than you would have for a clarinet.

In some ways, I think the bass clarinet is the most sensitive to small voicing changes out of all the horns I play (SATB saxes, bass and soprano clarinets). This can make it feel like finding and sustaining the right voicing to play the clarion (especially the upper clarion) with any power is like riding a knife edge until you get used to it. It's just so easy to inadvertently leap up a partial or five. The upside is that, once you get used to it, there's an absolutely massive range of tonal color available to you and there is incredible flexibility as far as how you want to shade your sound with different partials.

I think of tongue position in terms of vowel sounds and you can experiment to find what works for you. To get started, I'd play something like an open G or throat A and experiment with a tongue position ranging from a flat "Ahhhhh" to a middle "Ehhhhh" to a higher "Eeeeeee" kind of shape. When your tongue is completely flat, you will probably get a sound that I think of as being kind of "flabby," without a lot of core to the tone. As you raise your tongue position, you'll probably feel the notes start to come "into focus" and get a little bit more core. As you go all the way up to the "Eeee" shape, you'll probably feel them start to get a little harsh, with too much high partial stuff going on. Once you find that point, back off until the sound is back to being focused, with that strong core. That's a good starting point for your voicing. The adjustments you'll make as you move around the instrument from that point are relatively small and you'll hear and feel what a big difference a small adjustment can make.

I find that a vowel shape somewhere between "Eeee" and "Ehhh" works best for me, a bit closer to "Eee". I don't change that tongue position to go down the instrument in the chalumeau or the lower clarion (that I can perceive at least), but I do arch it a bit more in the upper clarion and in the altissimo. Bass clarinet altissimo is a weird and wonderful world of close partials and what feels like 10 fingerings per note, but that's probably not important until you've got the chalumeau and clarion registers feeling comfortable and natural.

Do that exercise as part of your warm up (shouldn't take more than a minute) so that you can start by calibrating your tongue position. Then you can go on and do whatever you were going to do. But doing that every time you play for a while will really make that automatic and you'll start to develop an intuitive feel for how to voice. By far the most common problem I hear from sax players learning bass clarinet is a tongue position that is much too flat. That tongue position is right for a sax, but on the bass clarinet it will give you that flabby, unfocused tone that is a dead giveaway to my ears.

Also, because this has come up when teaching students in the past: don't actually say the vowel sound out loud while playing or things will get weird. That's an advanced skill.

Lastly, that Concept is a pretty open mouthpiece. A V12 #2.5 isn't a hard reed, but it's actually harder than I liked with the stock Concept, which is quite resistant. I actually preferred (and still prefer) the blue box #2.5, which feels to me about a quarter strength softer. You really don't want to have too hard a reed, even by a little bit. That can lead to biting. Biting is the enemy of all good things on the bass clarinet.

 

[Rojarosguitar]

Thanks everybody for good advice ... I'll work my way through all of it.
I had the clarinet checked by a professional player tonight, and he found a slight leakage at the lower octave key - really tiny but sufficient to make life a bit more difficult.Apart from that he played up and down from lowest note to highest altissimo with no big effort at all and all sounded gorgeous. He recommended me to play BC reeds in the beginning and found that V16 2.5 was just right for the Selmer Concept MPc. So I'll take it from here and see how things will develop.

 

[Lambros]

This is actually one of the better threads in a while about this topic, Rojarosguitar, and the specifics that dirty pointed out about embouchure are quite excellent as well.

 

[Taragot]

Dear Rojarosguitar,
since you are from Freiburg: Nico Hutter ist a superbe bassclarinet (and sax) player from there. I think he gives lessons, too.

https://www.nicohutter.de/

 

[MojoBari]

Thanks everybody for good advice ... I'll work my way through all of it.
I had the clarinet checked by a professional player tonight, and he found a slight leakage at the lower octave key - really tiny but sufficient to make life a bit more difficult.Apart from that he played up and down from lowest note to highest altissimo with no big effort at all and all sounded gorgeous. He recommended me to play BC reeds in the beginning and found that V16 2.5 was just right for the Selmer Concept MPc. So I'll take it from here and see how things will develop.

This may be the best thing you did for yourself. Hearing another player play your equipment let's you know what is possible. Plus they were good enough to find a leak for you.

 

[Alphorn]

Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a small octave vent hole on the key you play with your left index finger.

I noticed this vent hole when I got my bass clarinet sometime ago. So far its utility escapes me. I can play my YCL221 without problems so ist didn't bother me to much. It even doesn't appear in fingering charts. Nevertheless, what is it good for?

Alphorn

 

[dirty]

I noticed this vent hole when I got my bass clarinet sometime ago. So far its utility escapes me. I can play my YCL221 without problems so ist didn't bother me to much. It even doesn't appear in fingering charts. Nevertheless, what is it good for?

Alphorn

It helps to voice the altissimo. Most of the altissimo fingerings from the soprano clarinet don't work particularly well unless you "half hole" that key by pressing down on the little tab that hangs off of the key and leaving that hole uncovered. Once you do that, they pop out pretty cleanly.

 

[Rojarosguitar]

Dear Rojarosguitar,
since you are from Freiburg: Nico Hutter ist a superbe bassclarinet (and sax) player from there. I think he gives lessons, too.

https://www.nicohutter.de/

That's funny, the player I mentioned is also Nico by name and a teacher of a friend, but he doesn't seem to be the same Nico as on the pics on the website you linked me to. But thanks anyway. I regulated the leak he pointed out and found two or three more minor plays that could be regulated with the tiny screws. Now it's sooooo much easier to play any note. I enjoy very much the discovery of the bass clarinet - it's so rich...

 

[Rojarosguitar]

With all the good advice I'm making some progress, though the clarion is still far from stable yet. It's really fun, and playing the soprano clarinet is fun too, more than I'd had expected...
Thanks again.

 

[clarnibass]

I didn't read all the replies so maybe I'm repeating something, but re 1, that's often the way it works on saxophones, but not clarinets (or bass clarinets). A leak at the top would make the top of the clarion worst, then gradually move lower. For example if a throat note is leaking, the C above the staff would be difficult, then gradually improve depending on the size of the leak (tiny leak, only C and B maybe... larger leak, A is difficult, then G#, etc.). Also the upper register is more sensitive to it than the lower register. An example is the common misadjustment of the F/C and E/B keys that is often felt significantly more for the middle B than the low E.