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JS Crescent, JS NOS, Selmer SBA, Couf Superba I, Conn, Buescher, King
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Discussion Starter #1
Genuine, well-intended question: what is the new administration's take on "sock-puppets," i.e. either present or past users using secondary or multiple accounts other than those they are currently known by, or known by in the past (perhaps having been banned in that past, re-emerging under fake names, or using secondary accounts to "troll")?

Is it verboten?

I'm pretty sure it is in play now, under the new management.
 

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What makes you think that there are previously banned members trolling the site???
This is also a genuine, well intentioned question.
 
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I think the admins are likely aware of it. Rather than hijack the thread, I'd actually like to know what the policy is.

I will offer an opinion: lifetime IP and person ban would be a great boon to the site, though maybe an IP ban doesn't do much any more with today's VPNs.

I can add this, @bandmommy: it would be weird if it wasn't happening. 1 in 100 people are born psychopaths, with a broken lymbic system that can't be fixed. 2-3 more are raised into sociopaths. That's a lot of people with severe personality disorders. They're here, and they're going to do things like use multiple accounts. For sport. Because, for them, why not.

If you let people with a basically criminal sensibility determine the personality of the site, because they will do that whether anybody is aware it's happening or not, and everybody loses, in a bigger way than is just about the forum.
 

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Well in the rules, it is stated to violate the rules if any person uses another name or account. One would assume that applies to banned accounts - but good luck proving it is occurring.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well in the rules, it is stated to violate the rules if any person uses another name or account. One would assume that applies to banned accounts - but good luck proving it is occurring.
Valid point. Thank you for the rules update.

You and I can't prove it, but usually admins eventually can, if they care to look at IPs. Corrupt weirdos always screw up. That's why they became corrupt weirdos in the first place (other than, basically, birth defects and family abuse, the latter of which is probably half of what crippled them). Competent, truly clever people don't need to be corrupt, or turn into malvols.

The logs will probably show multiple users on the same IPs. Question is, how hard is that to ferret out. That actually doesn't require an answer. Just saying.
 

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Valid point. Thank you for the rules update.

You and I can't prove it, but usually admins eventually can, if they care to look at IPs. Corrupt weirdos always screw up. That's why they became corrupt weirdos in the first place (other than, basically, birth defects and family abuse, the latter of which is probably half of what crippled them). Competent, truly clever people don't need to be corrupt, or turn into malvols.

The logs will probably show multiple users on the same IPs. Question is, how hard is that to ferret out. That actually doesn't require an answer. Just saying.
IPs are easily spoofed or just hidden. I use a VPN to connect, which disguises my IP and geolocation information. Additionally, many ISPs use dhcp, which can change device up addresses upon startup. It would not be grounds to ban someone based off an IP. That's my professional field (Cybersecurity specialist). It would take a lot of research and investigation from a cyber professional to accurately confirm - but they wouldn't even be able to take action without cause (ie: illegal activity, not a violation of rules)
 

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IP addresses don't really tell you that much, you can have multiple users behind a single IP address using WiFi or you can have one person using multiple IP addresses from public WiFi locations like McDonalds, etc. Or you can spoof them like Jared mentioned. But IMHO, unless there is a severe case of cyberbullying / fraud going on, it is wasted time trying to enforce anything like this. The only method that could potentially work would be semantic forensics because no matter how people try to hide their writing style, AI has become good enough to catch most of them.
 

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The only method that could potentially work would be semantic forensics because no matter how people try to hide their writing style, AI has become good enough to catch most of them.
Sounds like an expensive solution! I love our new AI and automation tools for cyber. Costs are high and tuning/setup is extensive. Probably not feasible for the mild profits of a sax forum to enforce for simple rule violations
 

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Sounds like an expensive solution! I love our new AI and automation tools for cyber. Costs are high and tuning/setup is extensive. Probably not feasible for the mild profits of a sax forum to enforce for simple rule violations
Exactly my point. There is an easier way of doing it, though, through simple voice authentication. You can't change your voice print and multiple personalities or fake accounts would immediately be recognized. You could randomize the voice authorization and any repeated failure to provide sound bytes would red-flag the account and three strikes and you are out.
 

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Exactly my point. There is an easier way of doing it, though, through simple voice authentication. You can't change your voice print and multiple personalities or fake accounts would immediately be recognized. You could randomize the voice authorization and any repeated failure to provide sound bytes would red-flag the account and three strikes and you are out.
Well yeah, tons of biometric options available that can't be faked. Voice is an interesting one though, don't see that often - I imagine the storage requirements would be substantial.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
I get it! But you guys are actually not talking about the particular situation, IMO. There is indeed an account that I think is one of two people, old Voldy or someone active, who pretty much everybody in the industry knows is a psychopath.

My point is that either of those two people will f--- up. They are too lazy to "stay on top of it." If I'm right, they're reading my posts now, and will be careful for a bit, but hubris, stupidity and fundamental incompetency will eventually allow them to slip. Plus, they're old, and if you're old you know that you're apt to make catatonically dumb mistakes at times with anything you're doing late at night, after 1 or 2 beers, whatever.

I'm just agitating for new administration to stay on top of this. This site can be way better than it was in the past. It was dysfunctional as hell from start, thanks to Voldy running things. When he was run off, the fundamental situation that allowed for him to rule it in the first place never changed. The same admins that backed him and circled wagons around hiim were in place til the recent sale -- with the late addition of a couple who are not of that cloth, and who IMO are part of a general improvement of the site over recent years. (Peebee and Pete, I applaud thee, and not for brown-noser points, but because you are real musicians, love The Music, and there is a clear dividing line between you and that past crew who were mods here primarily for the weirdo-cred of being a forum mod -- who would take on the headaches of moderating a forum like this for that reason? Not you, I think. I hope.).

The site can be a lot better than it was -- socially healthier and informationally more diverse, deeper, and broader. I'm just agitating for that.

Again, IMO, most of the sickos, even if my current thread post makes them vigilant for a moment, will get lazy and expose themselves as in the famous "sock puppet" incidents (which is why I used that title). These kinds of people are lazy and fundamentally a bit stupid. That is how they came to be what they are, and why they are what they are.

They will expose themselves (totally apt pun), but if you're not actually trying to keep them away then it won't be noticed, and they'll just keep poisoning the environment.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
When I say "you're not talking about the same situation," jmoen, I mean that with hackers you're often dealing with someone much smarter than most forum trolls, meaning 20+ IQ points higher (which is the difference between "legally mentally handicapped" and "normal," legally), and probably not of an advanced age, or pathological incompetence. If your specialization is clever and malevolent hackers (and in that case often the judgment of good/bad/benevolent/malevolent may be very ambivalent -- white hat vs black hat can be defined by "cognitive bias") you're not dealing with the kinds of people that are apt to poison the waters of a saxophone discussion forum. That is a much doltier form of human on average, I think you will be apt to agree.
 

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When I say "you're not talking about the same situation," jmoen, I mean that with hackers you're often dealing with someone much smarter than most forum trolls, meaning 20+ IQ points higher (which is the difference between "legally mentally handicapped" and "normal," legally), and probably not of an advanced age, or pathological incompetence. If your specialization is clever and malevolent hackers (and in that case often the judgment of good/bad/benevolent/malevolent may be very ambivalent -- white hat vs black hat can be defined by "cognitive bias") you're not dealing with the kinds of people that are apt to poison the waters of a saxophone discussion forum. That is a much doltier form of human on average, I think you will be apt to agree.
While I do agree that a troll would hardly go to the extremes I mention, and I hardly suspect they would spoof or the like, VPN is common these days, and would make IP tracing impossible.

Additionally, I believe no forum mods or admins would take this based off the whim of some suspecting members, without concrete evidence.

Opinions are like .. well we know how it goes.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
While I do agree that a troll would hardly go to the extremes I mention, and I hardly suspect they would spoof or the like, VPN is common these days, and would make IP tracing impossible.

Additionally, I believe no forum mods or admins would take this based off the whim of some suspecting members, without concrete evidence.

Opinions are like .. well we know how it goes.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it's almost certainly already happening. I doubt you doubt this, and I suspect admins don't either, and already know it's happening. It would be very irregular and go against any reasonable expectation for it not to be happening.

I'm voting, as a user who contributes more new content than most, for some vigilance and a zero-tolerance policy on "sock puppets," and it would make me stick around more to not have to deal with as much harrassment from crazypeople as otherwise would be the case, without a policy of actually seeking to prevent devolution.

This is a situation like Foucault's Panopticon chestnut, if you know what that is. It doesn't matter if the "prosecution" is likely or easy, just the threat of being caught and being perma-banned is enough to deter much of the crime. If you understand anything about corrupt, malevolent people, then you know that the only thing that governs their actions is consequences, not ethics or any moral code of behavior. That's why we call them corrupt and malevolent.

I'm not primarily stating opinion though there is plenty of that. My primary objective is to make a well-intended request, during the relaunching of a venue under new management, in the interest of the forum being less dysfunctional than in the past.

If I'm right, as far as my suspicion (which is a side issue), muzzling as much of the insanity of the psychopath I mentioned eariler as possible, by itself, is a large step in the right direction.
 

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That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it's already happening. I doubt you doubt this, and I'm voting, as a user who contributes more new content than most, that I would appreciate it, and it would make me stick around more to not have to deal with as much harrassment from crazypeople as otherwise would be the case, without a policy of actually seeking to prevent devolution.

No more, no less. It's not an opinion, it's a request.
Understood and agreed, It should be looked at and have a more specific policy prohibiting it.
 

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Voice print doesn't require a lot of storage and it is widely used in the Insurance industry, credit cards, and banking so the net savings are probably greater than having multiple profiles

Now I am playing devil's advocate:

Again, IMO, most of the sickos, even if my current thread post makes them vigilant for a moment, will get lazy and expose themselves as in the famous "sock puppet" incidents (which is why I used that title). These kinds of people are lazy and fundamentally a bit stupid. That is how they came to be what they are, and why they are what they are.

They will expose themselves (totally apt pun), but if you're not actually trying to keep them away then it won't be noticed, and they'll just keep poisoning the environment.
Who says you are not the goat trying to become the gardner? :devilish::devilish:
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Voice print doesn't require a lot of storage and it is widely used in the Insurance industry, credit cards, and banking so the net savings are probably greater than having multiple profiles

Now I am playing devil's advocate:



Who says you are not the goat trying to become the gardner? :devilish::devilish:
LOL I'm not sure what that (precisely) means about the goat & gardener, and that probably means I should really try to figure it out. I have no interest in moderating any forum, if that's what it means. And if I was a mod, here, I'd want to hear from me. Even if I didn't like me, personally. I listen to people I don't like all the time, especially about surfboards (I make surfboards). A lot of surfers and shapers, maybe even most, are totally selfish, unself-aware d--ks. But some of the worst know a lot about surfboards.

It's d--ks that don't know anything that go on ignore, whether here or "IRL." There are a lot of those, too lol
 

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LOL I'm not sure what that (precisely) means about the goat & gardener, and that probably means I should really try to figure it out. I have no interest in moderating any forum, if that's what it means. And if I was a mod, here, I'd want to hear from me. Even if I didn't like me, personally. I listen to people I don't like all the time, especially about surfboards (I make surfboards). A lot of surfers and shapers, maybe even most, are totally selfish, unself-aware d--ks. But some of the worst know a lot about surfboards.

It's d--ks that don't know anything that go on ignore, whether here or "IRL." There are a lot of those, too lol
What I am saying is that you are warning us against a psycho out there and in the day and age of misinformation, I am not blindly following any advice that discredits somebody else because it may be that you are the psycho and just have your sights set on somebody else.

I don't believe it is the case but I don't have evidence to either point of view which is why I am reserving my judgement. Moreover, I am trying to chill you down even if I may achieve the opposite if it is really you who is the psycho. 👹👾
 

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I personally have not seen/read anything that resembles a psycho troll post.
I have read a little that boarders on paranoia.
But... I'm a CRAZY old lady, so what do I know....
 
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