[Matt Curtis]

Is it imperative to use metal resonators on Keilworth saxophones when getting a repad? they come with metal resos from the factory. Has anyone used plastic resos on these horns?

 

[1saxman]

The wise thing to do is to use original pads or the closest you can get. Unless, of course, you think you know more about making a saxophone than the manufacturer.

 

[saxoclese]

Dr. Pauline Eveno's study found no significant difference in sound between metal and plastic resos both in acoustic measurements and in experienced player's perception of the sound. Players are free to pick whatever style or material of resos they like by the the look they prefer. Some Buescher fans like to keep the original snap-ons wherever possible which in most cases are slightly smaller than their more modern counterparts.

 

[Dr G]

Size matters, material not so much.

 

[Sacks Of Phones]

Is it imperative to use metal resonators on Keilworth saxophones when getting a repad? they come with metal resos from the factory. Has anyone used plastic resos on these horns?

You can put whatever resonators on your horn that your heart desires. Ignore the snotty responses that are prevalent on this discussion forum. FWIW, Selmer first put re-usable metal resonators on the Mark VI for the first few years then went to the brown plastic.

 

[condealisson]

My EX 90 II is in an overhaul, my luthier suggested change plastic for metal in the new pads, same price, I gone, waiting anxious now, I expect for a bit more projection (and he already has a lot today) in my experience timbre is not influenced by resonators.

 

[gary27]

I have a Couf Superba ll with chocolate Roo pads and slightly oversize Tenor Madness domed metal resonaters. I had a Couf Superba l with Black Roo pads and oversize domed metal resonators. Supposedly, the Black Roo pads are the toughest and hence the brightest of the White, Chocolate, or Black. I found that the Superba 1 was brighter than the ll, and i personally believe it was because of this. In my personal opinion, Keilwerth's and Super 20's don't do well with over size resonators, and i would not use either Black Roos or oversize resonators on either one.
The horns have a big sound and don't need that. I ended up selling the Superba 1 and kept the 2 which i love.....Just my experience...YMMV

 

[milandro]

I am really not sure that Super 20 don't do well with oversized resonators, mine does!

Anyway

No it is not imperative to use metal resonators for Keilw E rth . I have a Toneking Special with original pads and plastic resonators

 

[swperry1]

Yeah, I think it’s a whatever floats your boat thing, but I’d imagine it’s a tough call to make considering the expense of getting the work done/ redone if you don’t dig the result...not like trying a new mouthpiece or neck.

 

[JayeLID]

The wise thing to do is to use original pads or the closest you can get. Unless, of course, you think you know more about making a saxophone than the manufacturer.

A somewhat questionable bit of advice, as in fact...it is the presence or absence of resos which make any discernible difference, and not whether the resos are plastic or metal or ribbed or domed or flat or have pleasure rings or whatever....

Dr. Pauline Eveno's study found no significant difference in sound between metal and plastic resos both in acoustic measurements and in experienced player's perception of the sound. Players are free to pick whatever style or material of resos they like by the the look they prefer.

Yup. Same holds true for workaday players comparative testing samples....

So - the "unless you know more about making a saxophone than the manufacturer, you should do what the company did" argument....is a bit ersatz.

It is just as likely (more so, really) that the mfr's decision to outfit their horns with stock plastic reso or stock metal reso pads was the result of which was cheaper and easier for the company....

 

[JayeLID]

Yeah, I think it's a whatever floats your boat thing, but I'd imagine it's a tough call to make considering the expense of getting the work done/ redone if you don't dig the result...not like trying a new mouthpiece or neck.

If the result ends up being not acceptable to the client, however....it will not be because of the style of resonators chosen....it will be because something else in the tech's repad work makes the client unhappy.

The notion that a player would actually get a newly repadded horn...repadded again...based upon the argument that the player didn't like what the resos were doing ? Has anyone ever heard of that really happening ?

:| (check that, in a borderline obsessive gear-oriented player society as ours....I bet it has happened....)

If so, however...I'd posit the player needs a Therapist...not a new style of reso.....:bluewink:

So IMHO, not a "tough call" really. IT is a 'don't overthink this' sorta situation, especially nowadays...but it isn't a tough decision.

Plastic, metal, domed, flat, gold, seamless...as long as pad is of a good quality, there really isn't any 'going wrong' here.

Personally, a few clients recently wanted domed metal gold resos on their pads, so I obliged...and daaaaamn...on a brass lacq finish horn....those looks totally FLY.....so I am diggin' those nowadays.

 

[Dr G]

I have a Couf Superba ll with chocolate Roo pads and slightly oversize Tenor Madness domed metal resonaters. I had a Couf Superba l with Black Roo pads and oversize domed metal resonators. Supposedly, the Black Roo pads are the toughest and hence the brightest of the White, Chocolate, or Black.

This is the first time that I have heard the argument that black Roo pads are inherently brighter. Could you please share some links to those claims?

There has, however, been considerable discussion about resonator material, and the conclusion has been that resonator size will affect the result more than the choice of materials (for a given shape). Getting the leaks out of a horn will usually make it sound brighter too.

 

[JayeLID]

My EX 90 II is in an overhaul, my luthier suggested change plastic for metal in the new pads, same price, I gone, waiting anxious now, I expect for a bit more projection (and he already has a lot today) in my experience timbre is not influenced by resonators.

If the horn ends up sounding better and projecting better, it's unlikely to be because the resos changed from plastic to metal.

It is very likely to be because your tech's scope of repad work included getting everything else....pad leaks, key regulation, mechanical adjustments, etc....up to par.

Just saying, people think a 'repad' is just 'installing new pads'. But any tech will tell you, there are at least a half dozen other adjustments/service steps done on the horn during the repad....all effecting the horn's performance.

Don't be anxious....unless it's 'excited anxiousness' and not 'worried anxiousness' :bluewink:....if your tech is a good one, I am sure you will be incredibly pleased. EX90's are great horns !

 

[saxoclese]

This is the first time that I have heard the argument that black Roo pads are inherently brighter. Could you please share some links to those claims?

There has, however, been considerable discussion about resonator material, and the conclusion has been that resonator size will affect the result more than the choice of materials (for a given shape). Getting the leaks out of a horn will usually make it sound brighter too.

I'm not sure whether this applies or not. I had a conversation with Curt Altarac a few years ago and I brought up the idea that black roos feel harder than white roos to some players. He insisted that both use exactly the same felt and suggested that the way the leather is treated to produce the black color possibly makes the covering more "rigid" than the white leather. I don't know if this has an "acoustic effect" or not. I have never used black roo pads so I don't have any first hand experience. I have however installed white, chocolate, and roo extremes and found the white and chocolate to feel much the same, and that the extremes to be more rigid by design. The extreme pads are far more difficult to install since they are very unforgiving if the tonehole is not perfectly flat or there is any looseness in the keys. I just did a 6 month overhaul "check-up" on a customer's Super 20 tenor and can verify Curt Altarac's claim that once properly installed the extreme pads are "extremely" consistent over time.

 

[Dr G]

The acoustic effect that I have experienced with black Roo pads is the slapping/popping noise that they make when they connect on the tone hole. It is prevalent when the horn is close-mic’d, as in studio recording. The chocolate pads are plenty stiff for a firm feel, and less noisy, thus my preference.

Again, I have still heard nothing regarding experience that black Roos are any brighter due to their harder backing felt. As you have recounted time and again, what matters is whether sound waves reflect or are absorbed by a surface. Since the difference is in the backing rather than the cover material, black pads and chocolate should sound the same - especially if the room is dark. :twisted: :bluewink:

 

[theneighbordubh]

The gold resonator thing made me ponder what color resonators you can get. Oddly, a Superba I (Reverb) at a quite reasonable price popped up on the first page of my Google Shopping search results...

 

[condealisson]

If the horn ends up sounding better and projecting better, it's unlikely to be because the resos changed from plastic to metal.

It is very likely to be because your tech's scope of repad work included getting everything else....pad leaks, key regulation, mechanical adjustments, etc....up to par.

Just saying, people think a 'repad' is just 'installing new pads'. But any tech will tell you, there are at least a half dozen other adjustments/service steps done on the horn during the repad....all effecting the horn's performance.

Don't be anxious....unless it's 'excited anxiousness' and not 'worried anxiousness' :bluewink:....if your tech is a good one, I am sure you will be incredibly pleased. EX90's are great horns !

A great answer, I totally agree, is 'excited anxiety'

 

[click]

The wise thing to do is to use original pads or the closest you can get. Unless, of course, you think you know more about making a saxophone than the manufacturer.

Does this apply only to Keilworth saxes or to all saxes?

I have purchased several saxes from the 1920's that still had very soft, thick, white pads with little or no resonators.

Is it your opinion that the best replacement pads for these would have been the same sort as I found on them?

 

[Dr G]

The wise thing to do is to use original pads or the closest you can get. Unless, of course, you think you know more about making a saxophone than the manufacturer.

Pad "technology" has changed more than a bit in 100 years. It is not a matter of knowing more, but making good choices of options available. One can still choose to use small diameter (or no) resonators.

 

[JayeLID]

The acoustic effect that I have experienced with black Roo pads is the slapping/popping noise that they make when they connect on the tone hole. It is prevalent when the horn is close-mic'd, as in studio recording. The chocolate pads are plenty stiff for a firm feel, and less noisy, thus my preference.

I agree, this is a 'dynamic' of these pads, I have also found.

Roos also generally also just 'feel' harder under the fingers. I have had some customers be a bit unhappy with that 'feeling'. They are not to everyone's tastes....

To suggest an actual sonic difference, perceptible, in the tonality of the horn...I, too, would be interested in knowing how that was assessed, and whether there are any sound test examples which display this.

Not being snarky, but I'd need something supportive to not be skeptical of that claim....