[Saxydude]

Hi everyone. I've been rolling this subject around in my head for quite some time and finally decided to bring it to the forum for discussion.

The topic is very simple: Are saxophone players that decide to pursue performance at a collegiate level deluding themselves?

As we all know, there are no chairs in major symphonies to be held by a saxophonist; making a living as a full-time jazz musician is incrediblydifficult; and studio work is (as I understand it) becoming much more scarce, is incredibly competitive, and I've been told much of it is moving overseas to London. The majority of the people I've been in contact with whom study saxophone at a collegiate level either think that they'll get their Bachelor's and be good enough to hang with the cats in NYC or LA, or have already decided to earn a Ph.D. in hope of landing a job teaching at a university while performing on the side.

So, what purpose does a degree in saxophone performance serve?

 

[grevsax24]

That is the very reason that you should major in Music Education. Music Ed is essentially a performance degree minus a few classes. When I was looking at schools, my dad asked John Sampen "Should my son do performance or education?" and Sampen said without a doubt to do education. Sampen actually was a Band Director for a few years before he went back and got his higher degrees in Sax. The music ed degree can actually get you a steady job where you can gig on side and stuff.

 

[littlemanbighorn]

Nobody ever asks to see your performance degree when booking gigs.

 

[jamiejazz]

studio work is (as I understand it) becoming much more scarce, is incredibly competitive, and I've been told much of it is moving overseas to London.

Uuhhm, sitting here, in London, waiting for a call....uuhhm, still waiting....anybody?

Lots of London studio work now has shifted to Eastern Europe anyway...a new influx would be welcome.

I don't think the value of music degrees has changed-but with the everyone else demanding vocational explanations for studying anything, music just sticks out a bit now. People can't see the worth in studying unless it gets you a job, which is sad.

Jamie

 

[Razzy]

Then again, shouldn't a person study what they want to study? what they wish to learn about, and make financial considerations of subsequent or of corequisite importance? Too often in America the idea of college is to prepare students to land some kind of job. Not often enough is it seen as a four year opportunity to hone your skills as a creative, problem-solving, time-managing, realistic and socially functional adult... real life with a greater margin of error, and greater opportunities for risk and reward.

I came to music school because I wanted to be a good musician and to be with other good musicians, learn as much as I could about music, and from there decide the learning paths that I want to pursue in life. It's sparked my interest in educating myself in other areas: philosophy, ethics, science, my own religious and moral convictions, history, politics... the undergraduate degree for me is about honing my thoughts and skills and from there deciding where it needs to go. I've chosen to pursue a master's degree in education, citing that for one extra year, I will have a master's degree and be certified to teach in Pennsylvania, plus there is the chance that I will get some experience teaching overseas.

I am already gigging and teaching enough to make it by and I am a senior in college with a full credit load. It's all about location, networking, putting in the time that's needed to be in demand, and being positive and creative the whole way.

I think a mistake that a lot of saxophone players make is to think that they can get by without being one of two things: the best, most unique player on your given instrument(think of the tenor players who have the big recording contracts and touring schedules); or a very, VERY fine doubler (think of all the working doublers and session players in NY or LA). Work towards one or both of those goals and you will not have a very difficult time finding work as a player. Or, find another niche market and work towards that goal. Don't, and you will find failure. It's as simple as that.

 

[Fred]

Music can be an alluring mistress but often makes a shrew of a wife. For many people, having a steady job with benefits and a retirement program makes the side jobs they pay more enjoyable - they already know they can pay their bills next month without absolutely needing to find that next gig.

That being said, if you really are that special someone that can't live without being a full-time musician . . . and you have the skills to back it up . . . then maybe that's your true calling. But as was said earlier, nobody is gonna ask for your paper at that level . . . you just gotta be able to deliver.

 

[Budget Explosion]

If your parents are paying for it (or you have a scholarship) study what you want. This is a great time to pursue your passion and if you have good grades, you should be able to change direction with your vocation if sax performance doesn't work out. I work with a lot of Berklee grads. In Sept., a vocal performance major from Berklee just left us to go to New York Law School.

If I was going to college now and I'd have to take out massive student loans, I'd probably try to have a modified plan (such as getting a music eduction degree) in case I can't make a living playing sax. Those loans can be brutal to pay back.

 

[Nefertiti]

It could be worse. You could be this guy:

http://www.thepetersonproject.com/

Click on "Play new Movie" it's called "Last Call"

Pretty funny!!!

 

[bertolotti]

It seems to me if someone wants to go to college to learn saxophone to later teach,it makes sense.performance is another thing,speaking of jazz,why not study with the pros you admire,most would be available to teach a committed student,its the student who choses his influences.i got to study this way,the choices i made were at least, life changing and permanent.being able to earn a living of course was not the passion,ha ha.

 

[retread]

Great!
(refers to Nefertiti's link)

 

[hakukani]

It seems to me if someone wants to go to college to learn saxophone to later teach,it makes sense.performance is another thing,speaking of jazz,why not study with the pros you admire,most would be available to teach a committed student,its the student who choses his influences.i got to study this way,the choices i made were at least, life changing and permanent.being able to earn a living of course was not the passion,ha ha.

Because there is more to music than just playing your axe. A great private teacher can teach skills in playing, and some theory, but no one is master of all facets of music.

That's where the academy comes in.

I knew from the get-go that I was probably not going to make my living playing music. That didn't stop me. And, no, Mommy and Daddy didn't pay for my schooling, and my scholarship almost covered my tuition (not to mention one of the conditions of my scholarship was that I had to march, so I felt I earned the scholarship money).

Anybody can make a living, if they're not lazy or unintelligent.

 

[A Greene]

I asked a local pro this very question. It was more specific to Jazz players. I think many HS teachers get so excited about Jazz players that the kids are under the impression that the WORLD is going to worship them.

Unfortunately, teachers (and I'm one) feel good about working with students who WORK. Ususally the Jazz kids practice and put in the time on his or her instrument, so it's easy to give the Jazz kids lots of positive energy and want to see them succeed. Who wants to tell a 17 year old kid who lives and breaths saxophone that 90% of the public really isn't interested in Jazz.

THE BOTTOM LINE: Music education - in particular instrumental music - to focus on developing professional level musicians - vocational players. Much like preparing brick-layer or carpeter. One prepared students to enter the marketplace. The local AFM were strong, touring shows and local fairs and field days all needed music. Playing 5 or 6 nights a week in various ensembles to provide entertainment to the masses seemed to be the norm.

Those days appear to be over. Now Music Education is about educating the entire student - the whole child approach. So have "Little Johnny" learn all his scales, transpose, and play Flute, Clarinet, Oboe, Bassoon, and everything else. It's just important that he's in the room.

WHO LISTENS TO PROFESSIONAL CLASSICAL SAXOPHONISTS - aside from those who want to be professional classical saxophonists?

 

[Pete Thomas]

It's true that there are very few good careers out there as a saxophonist, however a music degree is well regarded by many employers. It involves a lot of transferable skills and the good employers know that.

When I was lecturing I used to write references for students applying for all kinds of jobs, some in the music business, some in banking or local government.

I was very happy to be able to mention their ability to organise rehearsals, (people management - something you don't get on many other courses), produce a stage performance, the discipline involved in practice and self study, public speaking (as part of their stage performance). All this and the need to write articulately.

Absolutely a good degree whether you are going to play, teach, music business, banking, journalism. Almost anything except plumbing.

It always frustrated me when I saw kids who really wanted to do music, but their parents made them do joint music and English or something so they could "get a proper job". Poor kids didn't do as well as the single honours students very often as they found it hard to focus on any one thing and they really wanted to just do music.

 

[daigle65]

It could be worse. You could be this guy:

http://www.thepetersonproject.com/

Click on "Play new Movie" it's called "Last Call"

Pretty funny!!!

That was funny !
I know the bass player, I've worked with him on cruise ship gig.
The film looks like it was shot on a cruise ship.

Trombone players are always the butt of this kind of joke but all the trombonists I know work all the time :? , there are less of them around, not like a-dime-a-dozen-saxophonists.

 

[vonbraig]

Never had anyone ask if I had a degree to get a gig. Shoji Tabuhi in Branson used to lie and say all the players in his band had one. Performance is great just realize it is harder than making it in sports, including NASCAR. Maybe when we die we take our knowledge with us so I could see that as a plus. Don't major in Ed unless you LOVE kids and teaching. Ask yourself if you could teach math and do a GREAT job. If yes then major in Ed. You'll get more calls to teach math though.

 

[Saxydude]

Thanks for chiming-in, guys. I'm digging the discussion so far and thanks for proving that intelligent conversation is still possible.

The common thread I see is "I've never been asked if I had a degree when auditioning for a gig," and that thought is one that I share. I've had the chance to study with some fantastic teachers at universities (some of whom have no formal degree themselves) and I've learned much. At the same time, many of the people I've met that are major players in NYC and LA either: graduated from a big name school in a city with an active jazz scene (NEC, Manhattan), went to college briefly and left to pursue a professional career, or did not attend college at all. Look at Lenny Pickett--No degree in music whatsoever and not only is he the leader of the SNL Band, he's also on the faculty at NYU! (I am aware that he is the obvious exception to the norm)

I'm not at all trying to discredit the value of a degree in music. Many of my friends are majoring in performance and I was a sax performance major for a time (I'm now considering adding performance to my current degree program). I guess I'm now endorsing the "get a degree in something other than performance but still study performance" idea.

 

[eugesax]

Look an Lenny Pickett--No degree in music whatsoever and not only is he the leader of the SNL Band, he's also on the faculty at NYU! (I am aware that he is the obvious exception to the norm)

idea.

He was a graduate of the University of T.O.P. - and he wrote the curriculum.

A degree in music is really about opening your mind and creativity. The insular world of a university frees the mind to be creative (Day dreaming is encouraged in music). It's also a great way to learn the foundation of many aspects of music and the biz. I graduated in '84 from U Miami and still find myself calling back to some of those early lessons. Each teacher had their own styles and personalities, and offered a unique lesson. There were 65 sax majors then and now only 15 or so. I have been told it is a conscience effort to scale back the numbers so they can focus more on the players they have. Also a reality that there just aren't enough performance gigs to go round (there was a big article in the LA Times about this recently). The music school is so well endowed that they don't need the tuition from more students.

Go to school. Learn all you can about the horn and theory. Keep your eyes and ears open, and figure out how to apply all of that to your job (what ever you choose that to be). With the state of the biz today, I think you'd be surprised (in shock) with the money numbers even at the very top. A career in music performance chooses you, not the other way around. If you HAVE to play the sax 24/7 and that's all you want to do, then there is no stopping you. Except maybe when the rent is do. I remember back in the day the "Miami Sound Machine" hiring a bunch of the top U Miami players to go on tour as their back-up band. Can anyone else think of another example? Trouble is, once that tour ends, ya gotta find another.

On a side note, I've tried to hire younger, fresh out of school players. They don't seem to be as willing to starve and do "whatever it takes" as my friends and I did after school. No matter what you know, ya gotta pay your dues.

 

[gary]

What eugesax said.

 

[ShedShark]

I have a friend who's on tour right now and he just posted this on his blog. He's in his 30's. It basically sums up what I hear from most musicians who don't have the ideal dream gigs:

"For the Kids


Get a job that pays well.

Don't settle for being poor to do what you love.

You may end up hating what you love when you tire of being poor.

If you really love something, you'll find the time to do it."

 

[Pete Thomas]

The common thread I see is "I've never been asked if I had a degree when auditioning for a gig," and that thought is one that I share.

I'm sure everybody shares that view, I can't imagine anybody thinking a music degree is going to be any use at all in getting a gig playing music in any genre whatsoever.