Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
At one time I heard from a tech that having the neck cork go all the way over the ring on the end of the neck tube has a different result sound/feel-wise than stopping it at the ring on the end of the neck. He said cutting it away to expose the ring creates a bit of (desired) turbulence.

On my old horn, I preferred the cork NOT covering the ring, but I don't remember why. I have a different horn now (the cork is covering the ring). I can easily cut the cork from the ring myself, but can't replace if I don't like it without a trip to the tech.

Anyone out there have any experience with this? No conjecture please, just knowledge based on experience as a player or tech.

Thanks!
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
Joined
·
7,432 Posts
It is an entirely subjective matter, so conjecture is the only possible response. I like to put the cork over the ring and give it a bevel at about 20 degrees or so. The main reason is it provides better mouthpiece stability on the cork. From experience, I know that new Selmers in the past always came with the cork over the ring. In fact, I never knew the ring existed until I saw a neck without its cork. Now, it seems as if they come with the ring exposed. Selmer also uses a shorter cork to promote resonance. I've always cut the cork back to minimize it on the back end, and I doubt covering the ring affects resonance.
A pet peeve is seeing those long corks on necks that techs sometimes do to cover where they scratched up the neck getting the old cork/glue off. In fact, I've seen them that were so long they started to go around the curve on a tenor - now that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
It is an entirely subjective matter, so conjecture is the only possible response. I like to put the cork over the ring and give it a bevel at about 20 degrees or so. The main reason is it provides better mouthpiece stability on the cork. From experience, I know that new Selmers in the past always came with the cork over the ring. In fact, I never knew the ring existed until I saw a neck without its cork. Now, it seems as if they come with the ring exposed. Selmer also uses a shorter cork to promote resonance. I've always cut the cork back to minimize it on the back end, and I doubt covering the ring affects resonance.
A pet peeve is seeing those long corks on necks that techs sometimes do to cover where they scratched up the neck getting the old cork/glue off. In fact, I've seen them that were so long they started to go around the curve on a tenor - now that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
Thanks for your reply-

I'm thinking it will change the resistance a bit and thus alter how one blows into the horn. Apples and oranges I suppose, just wondering what others have noticed.

Cheers-
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
Joined
·
7,432 Posts
I don't know if it will change the resistance but I don't like the idea of having the opening all around the ring in the mouthpiece bore. A few years ago we were discussing it here and there were others who liked the cork the old way if for no other reason than better support for the mouthpiece if you have to tune lower for some reason. It could be simply a matter of economics in not wrapping the reinforcing ring - its much faster and takes less cork to leave it naked. My advice is to try it both ways but give it a long test both ways before deciding - probably will make no difference.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2014
Joined
·
4,901 Posts
While learning how to cork necks, I replaced the neck cork on my Serie I and III necks several times over the course of a year in order to get a fair amount of corking practice in. One of the things that I did throughout corkings was change whether or not the tone ring was exposed on both necks. I've concluded that whether or not the tone ring is covered makes no difference in how the horn plays. Covering the tone ring requires a bit extra contact cement, and a little extra care in how you wrap the cork in order to avoid creating an air pocket that can lead to the cork breaking prematurely. For that reason, I prefer keeping the tone ring uncovered. Other than that, the ring slightly alters the internal dimensions of the neck's opening, which will affect sound, but only in a way that the neck was designed to accommodate. The ring also acts as a brace to protect the neck opening from less than careful hands. Take a look at some middle school owned Yamaha student saxes in order to understand why that's important.
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
... I like to put the cork over the ring and give it a bevel at about 20 degrees or so. The main reason is it provides better mouthpiece stability on the cork....
I respectfully disagree. It takes only a few mm of cork at the open end in order to seal, the other few cm of cork provides far more than enough stability without adding another mm or two over the ring. A cork has to be in a really bad state if it does not provide stability for the neck. But yes, it can get into a really bad state if it is left permanently on the neck between playings, such that it loses all resilience.

... A pet peeve is seeing those long corks on necks that techs sometimes do to cover where they scratched up the neck getting the old cork/glue off. ...
My pet peeve is having to do this to cover the damage done by a previous "tech" or more likely, DIYer.

I don't cover the ring unless requested or already covered. That is because there is likely to be an area just behind the ring where the contact glue does not fill a small gap, and that makes the adhesion less reliable in the very place it is most needed. Also, as mentioned, to cover the ring makes the cork much more vulnerable to damage during assembly.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2014
Joined
·
4,901 Posts
My pet peeve is having to do this to cover the damage done by a previous "tech" or more likely, DIYer.
Usually covering the previous "repair" that had a 1/2 inch + of bare brass exposed in between the tone ring and cork.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,814 Posts
At one time I heard from a tech that having the neck cork go all the way over the ring on the end of the neck tube has a different result sound/feel-wise than stopping it at the ring on the end of the neck. He said cutting it away to expose the ring creates a bit of (desired) turbulence.

On my old horn, I preferred the cork NOT covering the ring, but I don't remember why. I have a different horn now (the cork is covering the ring). I can easily cut the cork from the ring myself, but can't replace if I don't like it without a trip to the tech.

Anyone out there have any experience with this? No conjecture please, just knowledge based on experience as a player or tech.

Thanks!

Short answer, no. When I recork necks with a ring (obviously, not all have them), I leave the ring exposed for two reasons. First, Selmer's (and others) come that way from the factory. Second, the "step" the ring creates will leave a poor adhesion to the cork right behind it (if covered) and unless you put an extra amount of contact cement right behind the ring, over time it will be a weak spot. Lastly, because of the ring being raised from the area directly behind it, that part of the cork would be thinner than the rest. Again, leaving an area that would be prone to coming off easier.

From experience, I know that new Selmers in the past always came with the cork over the ring.
That's not my experience. From the factory, I'm 99% certain the ring was exposed.
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
... From the [Selmer Paris] factory, I'm 99% certain the ring was exposed.
Likewise. (And left inappropriately conical rather than cylindrical, as per I guess every manufacturer.)
 

·
Registered
JS Crescent, JS NOS, Selmer SBA, Couf Superba I, Conn, Buescher, King
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
IMO a good, short, practical answer to this question is that you can get your tech to do it either way. If you can't, you should probably get another tech.

I have my own preference & reasons, & I explain them to clients when doing new neck corks, but the choice is up to them.

Well, I could also say this (probably of more interest to OP): if I recork a neck for myself or say on a Crescent when a neck cork tears while I'm grooming it for the future owner's use, I'll bring the cork out to the end of the neckpipe with a mild bevel (slanting upward away from the mouthpiece) but the reason for the bevel is primarily to avoid the customer having the mouthpiece catch on the forward edge of the cork resulting in a tear. On the other hand, on most Crescents, when they come from the factory, the "ring" is exposed and I don't cover it and don't feel a need to do so (I want customers to be happy, obviously, so if I felt it would make a significant difference to the customer I would recork to cover it, and I don't).

I have seen the same people, over the years, posting to this board taking one stance vehemently, and then taking the opposite stance later, just as vehemently, where the only logical explanation is sort of political or that they have something to sell where the change of stance is in line with the present agenda.

Specific to the "tone ring" there is one personality (louder bullhorn than most) that strongly held that covering the ring is crucial, and then later listed the "tone ring" (being exposed) as having a crucial role in why his product was the best, etc..

The bottom line answer for most horns & necks is that if you really want an answer for yourself, you should do it both ways, play each way *for hours* -- because the difference you experience, if you experience one, may not be what you think it would be -- and stick with what you like best *on that specific horn*.

I add the last part because I'm keeping in mind that there are *rare* occasions when the neckpipe tip's length and/or volume effect will make a difference in intonation. There is a neckmaker who makes fantastic, much renowned necks that can occasionally (meaning yes on some necks, no on others) play out of tune if the neck cork overlaps the end of neckpipe tip (which does not have a ring at all on it, so that question is moot), but that reality (if you accept my belief that it is a reality) would suggest that there can be a real physical consideration there. Again, the best policy is to just try both, and see if you prefer one or the other, as SuperAction did, above.
 

·
Registered
JS Crescent, JS NOS, Selmer SBA, Couf Superba I, Conn, Buescher, King
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
This just occurred to me to add, and ironically I think it was kind of inherently discussed above regarding damage to the neckpipe tip: many horns famous for their sound -- for example most vintage American (e.g. Chu alto and tenor) -- did not have a tone ring at all. Instead they had a rounded, turned back lip, which the neck cork meets at the tip end, or just a flat, cut off end with no roll or ring. Because there was no reinforcing ring to strengthen the neckpipe tip, it's very common for the neckpipe tip to be damaged and/or torn on these makes.

I don't want to open myself to having to defend matters of opinion endlessly, so all I'll add to that is that despite that the one is more known for sound (but maybe not as lively response -- slower attack, more sustain and thus more muddy legato), and the other for quicker and more accurate response, the effect of the neck cork (this is the opinion part, left general/non-comittal for the reason I just mentioned) does not seem to follow/directly-relate-to that difference, if there is a difference that's real.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,458 Posts
This just occurred to me to add, and ironically I think it was kind of inherently discussed above regarding damage to the neckpipe tip: many horns famous for their sound -- for example most vintage American (e.g. Chu alto and tenor) -- did not have a tone ring at all. Instead they had a rounded, turned back lip, which the neck cork meets at the tip end, or just a flat, cut off end with no roll or ring. Because there was no reinforcing ring to strengthen the neckpipe tip, it's very common for the neckpipe tip to be damaged and/or torn on these makes.
My guess is that when manufacturers started either rolling the end (as Conn) or soldering a ring on, they did it only to protect the end of the neck. I would be willing to bet that tonal effects were the furthest thing from their minds, and that people attributing tonal effects to the ring/absence thereof is an after-the-fact phenomenon.

Personally, though I don't do a lot of neck corks, I never cover the ring because it's a pain to shave that part of the cork extra thin and if you just stretch it over I don't think it's going to last long. (You can probably tell I think it probably doesn't make a difference - just like I think a lot of things don't make a difference.)
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
Joined
·
7,432 Posts
'The ring also acts as a brace to protect the neck opening from less than careful hands.'

The sole purpose of the reinforcing ring is to reinforce the neck opening.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
Joined
·
7,432 Posts
'
That's not my experience. From the factory, I'm 99% certain the ring was exposed.'

The Selmers I'm referring to were a 1963 and 1966 I bought new.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
Joined
·
7,432 Posts
BTW, this is almost as good as a 'What kind of oil?' on a car forum. LOL
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
Joined
·
7,432 Posts
'My pet peeve is having to do this to cover the damage done by a previous "tech" or more likely, DIYer.'

No. There is never a reason to put extended cork on a neck. You are simply aiding and abetting idiocy by doing so. Whatever is exposed to view will just have to be seen.
 

·
Registered
JS Crescent, JS NOS, Selmer SBA, Couf Superba I, Conn, Buescher, King
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
My guess is that when manufacturers started either rolling the end (as Conn) or soldering a ring on, they did it only to protect the end of the neck. I would be willing to bet that tonal effects were the furthest thing from their minds, and that people attributing tonal effects to the ring/absence thereof is an after-the-fact phenomenon.

Personally, though I don't do a lot of neck corks, I never cover the ring because it's a pain to shave that part of the cork extra thin and if you just stretch it over I don't think it's going to last long. (You can probably tell I think it probably doesn't make a difference - just like I think a lot of things don't make a difference.)

Yeh, and you can probably tell I give some credence to many things that may or may not exercise some effects about which many others would think (with or without trying it out for themselves -- I have pretty much tried everything I'm curious about for myself), "No way, that wouldn't make a difference."

But as far as service, my advice is the same as on this thread.

As far as the cork, for me, since my normal is to bring the cork all the way forward so that the seal is all the way at the end of the neckpipe (unless working for someone else, and that person has requested otherwise), it's not difficult or complicated to do it that way. For me it's actually more complicated to do the cork with the "tone ring" exposed.

But, again, that said, my own horns -- on the ones that have a "tone ring" -- and I am playing three different tenors regularly at the moment, some have an exposed "tone ring" and some don't, and I don't fuss about it; I don't think about the ones that don't, O Lord, I got to put a new cork on this, or whatever.

That said, some necks also are snugger (larger diameter) at the outer edge of the "tone ring," leaving less space between the neckpipe end and mouthpiece, than others. On the 3 tenors I'm playing at the moment, one has an original Chu transitional neck, and two I play with Schucht necks (different Schucht necks) and the compressed cork is about even with the outer surface of the "tone ring," so there isn't a lot of difference between those necks with and without cork extending to the end.

I don't think it's a waste, this topic, as far as an informational topic. IMO, the real final answer to the question is something that gets said over and over, here, over years: (1) take in the information, "both sides" or "all sides," (2) try it for yourself, and test as much of the information as you can, (3) make up your mind for yourself, (4) keep in mind that your findings may change as your equipment shifts or changes and as your playing ability evolves. Often, one's findings will change as one makes progress as a player. Chu intonation, I used to think, was inherently terrible. The longer I play, and make progress, the less I find that to be true. But, even there, that said, I make some changes to Chus that help with intonation (for me, at least), and I can promise you that one of them is one you would probably think wouldn't make a difference. :)
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
'My pet peeve is having to do this to cover the damage done by a previous "tech" or more likely, DIYer.'

No. There is never a reason to put extended cork on a neck. You are simply aiding and abetting idiocy by doing so. Whatever is exposed to view will just have to be seen.
It makes no difference to the way a sax plays.
But it certainly makes a difference cosmetically, and that is really important to some customers. So if you have such a customers and are this obstinate, then please send them to me. Or you could offer to charge them a heap for re-finishing the neck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,017 Posts
But, even there, that said, I make some changes to Chus that help with intonation (for me, at least), and I can promise you that one of them is one you would probably think wouldn't make a difference. :)
Ok, now I am curious. What changes do you make to improve the intonation??
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
For a price, I used to be able to buy sheet cork that had no visible holes, nor any visible filling of holes.
Those days have gone. I suppose that premium cork is now used to satisfy the fashion for putting cork pads on clarinets. (When I am recorking the centre joint of an articulated-G# clarinet it can be close to impossible to find a piece of cork good enough.)

Now I have to use cork that has filled holes, and it is rare to be able to cut an edge that does not have at least small holes very close to, or even at the edge. When the cork is going to be sanded very thin, even well-glued hole fillings are not much better than holes. They are places from which the cork can more easily tear.

If I cover the ring with cork, it means that there is very-thin cork, substandard with holes or filled holes , in a location that is highly vulnerable.
If a customer requests the ring to be covered I warn them of this.
There is a down-side to almost every quirky procedure.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top