[Mando]

Hope this is the right place to post this question. Please let me know if it is not! I’m brand new to alto sax, and I’m learning on a secondhand Yamaha. As I work on learning scales, it seems that whenever I want to play a middle B note, I not only need to hold down the correct key, but I ALSO need to tighten up my embouchure a bit. If I don’t, the note is flat. Most other notes, if I press the correct key, I get more or less the correct note without changing my mouth. Does this tell an experienced player anything? There’s a problem with my horn? There’s a problem with my embouchure? Or is the B note typically one that needs to be treated a bit more delicately than others? Many thanks if you can tell me anything useful.

 

[bruce bailey]

It sounds like the Bb key (small pearl below the B pearl) is not coming up all the way.

 

[1saxman]

That is very possible and is a common maladjustment even by experienced techs. Plus, where it may not affect some saxes very much, others that may tend to have a slightly flat B can be more affected. The Bb/G#/lower stack adjustments are involved and critical for sax performance.

 

[andre251]

Hold down bottom right side key when playing B. It will likely put the pitch right in tune. This is a regular thing for my students with Yamaha saxophones, even the upper 62, 875, and 82Z models.
You use this when you hold out a note, not when doing quick passages or scales.

 

[saxoclese]

If there is "lost motion" (key movement before making contact) when pressing down the A key between the A and the Bis, it indicates the bis isn't opening enough. This can be corrected by opening the lower stack keys a bit. On a well regulated saxophone there should be no "lost motion" between the A and the Bis, and the extension from the F# where it contacts the arm from the Bis.

 

[Mando]

Thanks to everyone for these helpful replies. I’m still trying to figure it out. Andre, can you explain which is the “bottom right side key”? It would useful to find out if holding that key down would clear the “problem” (which could well just be me anyway! I haven’t even been at it for quite two weeks yet). And, yes, this is a basic yamaha alto 23, seemingly in great shape, but then what do I know?!

 

[lydian]

Everybody in the thread so far is guessing that the Bb cup in the top picture below is stuck closed. It should normally be open when you play a B. If you press the Bb side key in the bottom picture and the note goes up, then this confirms our guess. If it doesn't make any difference, then you are the problem and you need to keep practicing. But there are other possibilities, like you're actually closing both 1 and Bb in the top picture when you finger a B which should only be 1.

If the side key proves the Bb is stuck closed, cleaning the pad so it no longer sticks might solve it. Or there could be a spring that has come lose that would need to be put back in place.

Post back with your results.

 

[andre251]

Mando, mdavej shared two photos. On the photo titled “saxbottom.jpg” it shows the key I am speaking of. The key is the one called “Bb” in the photo, otherwise known as bottom side key, or RSK3.
Mando, I have taught dozens of beginners, some entirely skip beginning band or beginning saxophone class because they are so far ahead. I am very familiar with teaching beginners. While there is a possibility that your key is stuck or at the wrong height like others are describing, it sound more like your issue is a common Yamaha tuning challenge.
So first confirm like others have said that one particular key is not stuck or not opening all the way. If that is not the case, I suggest you follow the method I suggested of adding RSK3 when playing first finger B.
Lastly, while the saxophone embouchure can technically bend the pitch up or down, you should only ever bend down. Squeezing or biting is never suggested for proper classical technique.

 

[Mando]

OK. Magic! Not really, but you guys sure know saxes! If my B is slightly flat and I press the side Bb key that Andre describes, the pitch goes up where it should have been in the first place! I’m not 100% sure what this tells me, though: that my Yamaha 23 has some typical limitations that aren’t reasonably fixed? that I should just use the side Bb key whenever I play a longer B note? that I just need to anticipate the “problem” and blow a bit differently when I play a B than I do other notes? I think the Bb cup is opening alright and I don’t think I’m hitting the pearl when I’m trying to hold only the 1 key. And the more I play, I begin to sense that the B isn’t always a bit flat, but depends where I’m coming from in playing scales or such. Maybe this is even more evidence that I just need to get used to mouthing the B a little differently? Anyway, you folks are great! Thanks for your help.

 

[saxoclese]

Lastly, while the saxophone embouchure can technically bend the pitch up or down, you should ever bend down. Squeezing or biting is never suggested for proper classical technique.

While I agree with the second half of this statement I have to respectfully disagree with the first. I acknowledge the fact that over relaxing the embouchure to lower the pitch is never acceptable because of the poor tone that is produced. However there are several notes on the saxophone that have a tendency to be slightly sharp and need to be "lipped" a small amount in order to match pitch or be in tune with the harmony. Of course there are special fingerings that can be used on many of these notes to "help" adjust the pitch, but due to technical limitations their use is limited to longer tones or slower passages. Without "bending down" a vibrato would not be possible. Acoustically speaking the pitch of notes high A and above can be adjusted using the voicing, however notes that are lower cannot and must be "lipped" in tune.

 

[andre251]

Saxoclese, that is a typo, thanks for pointing it out to me!!
It should say you should *only ever* bend down.

 

[andre251]

Saxoclese, that is a typo, thanks for pointing it out to me!!
It should say you should *only ever* bend down.

 

[turf3]

Well, I can't speak intelligently about Yamaha student sax tuning anomalies, but the first thing I would ask OP is "what do you mean by "flat"? Five cents on a tuner, or almost indistinguishable from Bb?

In general the middle B on all the saxophones I've played is a perfectly ordinary note. There are a lot of ways several minor misadjustments could lead to a wrong key height there. I'd look at the key height first, before introducing corrective fingerings.

 

[Mando]

Thanks, Turf3. I certainly have not been blessed/cursed with perfect pitch, but I am coming to sax from a fiddle background, so I’ve developed a decent ear for pitch. My “flat” B is more like what you call “ Five cents on a tuner” than anywhere near Bb. I find using the side key helpful in coaxing the pitch up where it should be, but I’m also learning to anticipate the need to tighten up a bit when I play a B. As I read more about sax playing, I’m not so sure I’m encountering a rare problem. And I AM a complete beginner, who, at 73, has no desire to do more than enjoy playing some bluesy notes. Nonetheless, a beginner on any instrument is never sure if the “problem” is him or his instrument!