[Hypnoswan]

Im sure this has been asked already but I have done searches and can't see it so here it is.....

I am 67, just started on the sax and loving it. I and am currently renting a Yamaha 280 Tenor since Jan and practice an 1/2 an hour to an hour a day, {weirdly I like doing long tones} but now want to buy a sax of my own as I'm hooked. Been playing since Xmas.

As much as I enjoy the tenor sound I find it too heavy and tiring as I have back and neck trouble, and not having perfect health means I have to sit down a more than I'd like (is also why I had to sell a lot of my very expensive photogear) so am thinking to get an Alto rather than Tenor. I know there are various devices to take the weight off the neck but I'd also like to play sitting, if possible, and just something smaller..

I know the sensible thing to do is to get a student horn. I get that. but I ask myself...what if I don't get the chance again..... sure the YAS 280/480 would be the sensible choice...yet I have been looking at all these lovely Saxes and Im tempted: I had a little money after retiring and £2800 is what's left of it to spend. Once it's gone it's gone so I'll not be able to afford so much later on and if I wait it'll get spent on bills for sure!.

I'm looking at Yamaha or Yanagisawa which yes, is silly money for a newbie and At my age, am I ever going to reap the benefits of such equipment? Am I better to just get the YAS 480 (lots of options and save my money)?

Problem of course Is I can't get out to try them so I have been lost in internet GAS world: and the choice I have down is between the Yamaha YAS 480/62 and the Yanagisawa AW02/AW010. Strikes me the Yamahas are the more practical (and cheaper)option but I love the mellow sound of those Yanagisawas - yet will I ever achieve such dulcet tones; will it just be expensive practice metal?

Music I like most is dub-reggae/jazz fusion and classical

I am being utterly utterly daft in considering getting the pro level saxes when I have so little experience and at my age,{if I was younger I could argue I'd get there given enough time} or being just slightly daft?

 

[sparq]

As much as I enjoy the tenor sound I find it too heavy and tiring as I have back and neck trouble, and not having perfect health means I have to sit down a more than I'd like (is also why I had to sell a lot of my very expensive photogear) so am thinking to get an Alto rather than Tenor. I know there are various devices to take the weight off the neck but I'd also like to play sitting, if possible, and just something smaller..

Before you give up on tenor because of back and neck issues, I would suggest looking into a Saxholder or Saxholder Pro made by Jazzlab. It places the weight on the shoulders instead of the neck, and the contrast is significant compared to a standard neck strap - even for alto and soprano.

Pro/Con of Buying a Pro-level Instrument
* Pro: If you buy a pro instrument, you will have that instrument for the rest of your life as long as you take care of it and you will not be prevented from advancing.
* Con: Others here seem to view the "student line" of Yamaha (e.g. YTS-23) as very good instruments which are merely labeled as "student models" for marketing purposes.

The advice I would give is to avoid the Chinese made instruments and purchase a quality instrument if and when you do decide to buy rather than rent.

 

[HeavyWeather77]

Sparq is giving good advice! Really good things to keep in mind. But both models of saxophones you're looking at are very good and sensible choices. If I were in your shoes and I had the budget for it, I would go for the Yanagisawa. Even their most affordable models are among the best-playing saxophones being made right now.

That being said, I've been a Yamaha player for twenty years. Their 82z line of horns are phenomenal, and their lower-level models are always very, very good instruments for the money. So if your budget is tight, you won't be sorry with a Yamaha.

 

[Arundo Donax]

Reaping the benefits - what determines that will be your own personal enjoyment of the instrument. If the more expensive "pro" or intermediate sax has you worrying about finances or second-guessing your decision, then I'd say stay with a "student" sax - which, with Yamaha, isn't exactly bad.

Ten years younger than you at the time, I had no choice when learning but to use a true student sax - the YTS-21. It sounded good enough to me that I bought it and that's my only sax today.

However, there are nicer aspects to a more advanced level sax - it usually has better, quieter keywork mechanisms and is designed better for adjustments and repairs.

If you don't need to make a decision soon, first assess how committed you are to playing, how much you enjoy it. That may warrant a nicer sax.

 

[lydian]

At your age, if you want the prettiest horn and have the money, go for it. But if you just want to play, a student Yamaha or equivalent is all you'll ever need. If you are interested in saving money, buy something used. You'll usually pay at least 50% less than new for a horn in like new condition. Parents buy their children nice horns all the time that end up on the used market within a year.

Avoiding Chinese instruments is tough these days since many of the top brands are made in China now.

I'm surprised there is a significant difference in the sound of a Yamaha and a Yanagisawa. In my experience, they sound virtually identical. Realize that the mouthpiece (and of course the player) has a much bigger effect on the sound than the horn itself.

 

[lostcircuits]

At your age, if you want the prettiest horn and have the money, go for it. But if you just want to play, a student Yamaha or equivalent is all you'll ever need. If you are interested in saving money, buy something used. You'll usually pay at least 50% less than new for a horn in like new condition. Parents buy their children nice horns all the time that end up on the used market within a year.

Avoiding Chinese instruments is tough these days since many of the top brands are made in China now.

I'm surprised there is a significant difference in the sound of a Yamaha and a Yanagisawa. In my experience, they sound virtually identical. Realize that the mouthpiece (and of course the player) has a much bigger effect on the sound than the horn itself.

100% agreed. If all you have to worry about is what your heirs are going to think of your spending spree, do yourself the favor and get the nicest horn you can find. If you are worried about buyer's remorse, get yourself a good, solid horn, either used or one of the more reputable modern horns like Phil Barone or similar. And by all means, spend the difference on a good mouthpiece!

 

[germanwatches]

You have probably worked your entire life, so I do NOT believe that it is silly to purchase the saxophone of your choice (regardless of your ability). In 2019, I "upgraded" from a "pro" horn to a "student" horn. Last year, my day job allowed me to work 152 gigs on that "student" horn.
Go for it and enjoy it!!

 

[AddictedToSax]

Absolutely not daft. If you have the money and the desire then do it. Some here will tell you to buy a used sax vs. a new one. There's a lot to that. Like buying a car, when you buy a new car you are paying a big premium. Also, like buying a car, you can get a low mileage horn in like new condition and save 25-40% depending on the horn. That's the way I would go. Having started playing as a child on a $40 well-used clarinet I was amazed, when at the age of 25 I got a brand new professional model, how much easier it is to play. I was also amazed at the difference in the richness of the tone. So if you have the ability to buy a nice lightly-used pro horn then why not do it. It will last you for the rest of your life and will give you joy every time you pick it up. Well, excepting those bad days when your fingers won't do what you want them to and you can't find a reed that plays.

As far as alto vs. tenor, that's a choice only you can make. I have a tenor, an alto and a clarinet and I also have a bad back. I only play sitting down and don't find playing tenor any harder sitting down. I've played with the instrument to the side, not right in front and I don't think it makes much difference either way. When my back is really acting up I play the alto or the clarinet. I've gone through several neck straps and harnesses. I have settled on Jazzlab's Saxholder as the best way to take the weight off the neck and put it onto the torso. Get the newest version, I think it's the Saxholder Pro. It has several improvements over the early models.

 

[swperry1]

IMHO the saxholder is pretty much completely terrible for seated tenor playing. I keep a simple neck strap in my bag for when I get a call to sub in a band where I can’t play standing up. Someone had to say it.

Alto might be the right choice, maybe you can transfer your rental contract to an alto to try it out a while as you search for an axe to purchase?

Don’t let people who want to tell you what instrument to buy based on your playing level or aspirations dictate your decision...all musical instrument makers would be out of business if students, amateurs, and hobbyists didn’t buy the bulk of all instruments ever made.

If I were in your shoes I’d be inclined to go with a used horn in great condition (the car analogy is fitting) and have a blast making sweet noise...Good luck!

Edit: if there’s a repair shop near you the tech(s) might have a line or two on some nice horns for private sale that wouldn’t be on the sales floor wherever you rent.

 

[Hypnoswan]

Before you give up on tenor because of back and neck issues, I would suggest looking into a Saxholder or Saxholder Pro made by Jazzlab. It places the weight on the shoulders instead of the neck, and the contrast is significant compared to a standard neck strap - even for alto and soprano..

thanks I'll check that out

Reaping the benefits - what determines that will be your own personal enjoyment of the instrument. If the more expensive "pro" or intermediate sax has you worrying about finances or second-guessing your decision, then I'd say stay with a "student" sax - which, with Yamaha, isn't exactly bad.
.

Not a worry about spending a bit more, only I don't want the higher quality (etc.) to be completely wasted on me. If it's going to be a case of my never noticing any difference whatsoever in the near future in sound between the say 480 and the AW02 then that would simply be a. waste

At your age, if you want the prettiest horn and have the money, go for it. But if you just want to play, a student Yamaha or equivalent is all you'll ever need
I'm surprised there is a significant difference in the sound of a Yamaha and a Yanagisawa. In my experience, they sound virtually identical. Realize that the mouthpiece (and of course the player) has a much bigger effect on the sound than the horn itself.

I don't want it only for its prettiness, I want to be able to hear a difference too, even if not at first- I don't know how long these things take (cue piece of string analogy?)
I get that the mouth pieces make a big difference, but I can hear a clear difference in tone (is that the right word?) between the makes on the examples I've heard on the interweb, but can I (will I be able to) make the difference audible is another question

100% agreed. If all you have to worry about is what your heirs are going to think of your spending spree, do yourself the favor and get the nicest horn you can find. --- And by all means, spend the difference on a good mouthpiece!

not worried about my heirs (yet!). But I get your point about mouthpieces

You have probably worked your entire life, so I do NOT believe that it is silly to purchase the saxophone of your choice (regardless of your ability). In 2019, I "upgraded" from a "pro" horn to a "student" horn. Last year, my day job allowed me to work 152 gigs on that "student" horn.
Go for it and enjoy it!!

Indeed have worked for it.
Just curious: why did you change to that horn?

Absolutely not daft. If you have the money and the desire then do it. Some here will tell you to buy a used sax vs. a new one. There's a lot to that. Like buying a car, when you buy a new car you are paying a big premium. Also, like buying a car, you can get a low mileage horn in like new condition and save 25-40% depending on the horn. That's the way I would go. Having started playing as a child on a $40 well-used clarinet I was amazed, when at the age of 25 I got a brand new professional model, how much easier it is to play. I was also amazed at the difference in the richness of the tone. So if you have the ability to buy a nice lightly-used pro horn then why not do it. It will last you for the rest of your life and will give you joy every time you pick it up. Well, excepting those bad days when your fingers won't do what you want them to and you can't find a reed that plays.

As far as alto vs. tenor, that's a choice only you can make. I have a tenor, an alto and a clarinet and I also have a bad back. I only play sitting down and don't find playing tenor any harder sitting down. I've played with the instrument to the side, not right in front and I don't think it makes much difference either way. When my back is really acting up I play the alto or the clarinet. I've gone through several neck straps and harnesses. I have settled on Jazzlab's Saxholder as the best way to take the weight off the neck and put it onto the torso. Get the newest version, I think it's the Saxholder Pro. It has several improvements over the early models.

good info thanks. You can use the Saxholder sitting down? OK that's also good to know

Thank you all for your responses- much appreciated! --Other question: I have been getting used to the Tenor, will I notice much difference in embouchure changing to Alto (not that I mind- just curious)

 

[Hypnoswan]

IMHO the saxholder is pretty much completely terrible for seated tenor playing. I keep a simple neck strap in my bag for when I get a call to sub in a band where I can't play standing up. Someone had to say it.

Alto might be the right choice, maybe you can transfer your rental contract to an alto to try it out a while as you search for an axe to purchase?

Don't let people who want to tell you what instrument to buy based on your playing level or aspirations dictate your decision...all musical instrument makers would be out of business if students, amateurs, and hobbyists didn't buy the bulk of all instruments ever made.

If I were in your shoes I'd be inclined to go with a used horn in great condition (the car analogy is fitting) and have a blast making sweet noise...Good luck!

Edit: if there's a repair shop near you the tech(s) might have a line or two on some nice horns for private sale that wouldn't be on the sales floor wherever you rent.

I did wonder about the sax holder seated

TO change rental contract I have to go to the post office to return the Tenor, which I want to avoid while self isolating- I can continue to practice for a few more months and get the benefit of experiencing both was my thinking.

same problem with repair shops etc- if not self isolating life would be simpler!

 

[AddictedToSax]

You can use it sitting down but it does tend to slip when played to the right side as I do. I believe they have made some changes to help keep it in place on the new model. It’s not ideal. It actually is designed for holding the sax in front and not to the side. For me, it works better than anything else I’ve found for taking weight off my neck and thoracic spine. But it is not a perfect solution. The arms that go to your shoulders slip and you have to sort of hike it back into position. If I could find something better I’d buy it.

 

[Hypnoswan]

You can use it sitting down but it does tend to slip when played to the right side as I do. I believe they have made some changes to help keep it in place on the new model. It's not ideal. It actually is designed for holding the sax in front and not to the side. For me, it works better than anything else I've found for taking weight off my neck and thoracic spine. But it is not a perfect solution. The arms that go to your shoulders slip and you have to sort of hike it back into position. If I could find something better I'd buy it.

good explanation thanks

 

[Hypnoswan]

from your prompts I looked and found that there is a very experienced repair technician in the very next village!!
what are the chances?
My teacher also happens to only 10 mins walk away in our village, though I can't see him for a while
Cool

 

[germanwatches]

Indeed have worked for it.
Just curious: why did you change to that horn?

It's similar to a flux capacitor. The experiment was to determine the true differences between a modern "pro" and a modern "student" horn.
My conclusion is that sexy is sexy and nothing will change that....

 

[Hypnoswan]

It's similar to a flux capacitor. The experiment was to determine the true differences between a modern "pro" and a modern "student" horn.
My conclusion is that sexy is sexy and nothing will change that....

ha!

 

[lydian]

I get that the mouth pieces make a big difference, but I can hear a clear difference in tone (is that the right word?) between the makes on the examples I've heard on the interweb, but can I (will I be able to) make the difference audible is another question

In a couple of years, yes you will be able to make an audible difference. But a different mouthpiece will make a BIG difference.

I agree that horns can sound a lot different from one another. It's just the two in question are very similar based on my own experience and that of other players in the bands I've played in. Unless the examples were the same player, same mouthpiece on both horns, I remain unconvinced.

 

[JayeLID]

A few things.

1) (I just mention this because I will take every opportunity to ... different horns will sound DIFFERENT, this is BECAUSE different models are built to different specs...and those specs determine the horn's intrinsic tonality. Likewise they'd 'feel' different (or some feel similar, actually)

YES, mouthpiece and playing style CAN massage the horn one direction or another...but the spade is the spade. The piece of hardware in your hands has its built-in qualities. So...model is a significant determinant of tone and response.

everything here is held constant except one thing: the horn. If anyone says there aren't significant differences in tone between many of the instruments, I don't want your ears....:bluewink:

Now also of interest might be that between SOME of 'em, there isn't a whole lotta sonic difference.

2) OK....Hypnoswan....a question:

Problem of course Is I can't get out to try them so I have been lost in internet GAS world: and the choice I have down is between the Yamaha YAS 480/62 and the Yanagisawa AW02/AW010.

HOW did you come down to this list of two ? If you have NOT actually tried either...I'd suggest when things return to the point where you CAN...DO so.

Is there really some sort of 'race against time' here ???? Put aside however much you CARE to spend for a horn, keep renting (perhaps even swap yourTenor rental for an Alto rental) and when the time comes, go out and start testing some.

Yes the Yani is a 'pro' horn, all of theirs are. Yes the Yama is an 'intermediate'. per their own marketing. But there are a good, good half dozen other (new) makes and models out there in your price range which are JUST as good if not 'better' depending on one's yardstick.

I say this only because I know plenty of players who, when horn shopping, ended up choosing a model they had not initially thought they were gonna get.....not all that uncommon, even, for a player to pick a brand's so-called 'intermediate' horn over their 'top-shelfer'.

OK so I put 1) and 2) together, because....in order to ascertain a horn, you sorta have to play it.

In the absence of that opportunity right now, it might be better to hold off.

Also....you haven't played much (any ?) Alto. So you'd be buying a brand new horn without having tried its voice. A lot of folks simply do not favor one voice over the other; one inspires 'em more

What if, for example...you played a Yama 62, and you played a Yani AW...and to you, they were really more or less indistinguishable ?
Yes, ok maybe the 'felt' a little different, maybe they sounded a tad different, but you had no preference, per se ...

This actually happens fairly often....particularly with players who only have a few years under their belts....

Not a worry about spending a bit more, only I don't want the higher quality (etc.) to be completely wasted on me. If it's going to be a case of my never noticing any difference whatsoever in the near future in sound between the say 480 and the AW02 then that would simply be a. waste

Indeed. Yet there seems to be only one way to ascertain this.

Some people associate the notion:

"Get the best possible horn your money can buy"

with

"if given a choice between a less and more expensive model (both of reputed mfrs), the more expensive one = the better one".

Not always the case...

 

[mmichel]

I'll preface the following by saying that I prefer Keilwerths. I'm not saying that to add to your dilemma, but just so that you know that I'm not a Yamaha stan and that horn preferences are a very individual thing.

That said, I have a buddy who's a professional player and a former professional repair technician, and who plays lead alto in my community big band. He's got tons of horns, including Mark VI and SBA altos, that he sometimes brings to rehearsals. But for his pro gigs and for our big band gigs, he always plays a Yamaha 480 alto, which is his favorite and most dependable horn.

If you want a different horn for whatever reason (e.g., you tried a horn and it sounded or felt better for you, you feel like you'd rather have a higher 'status' instrument), that's fine. As others have said, I'm sure that you've earned it through your lifetime of work. But don't get a different horn because you're afraid that Yamaha 480 will hold you back. It won't.

 

[mmichel]

Duplicate Post.