[Zinharet]

Hello there!

I just got a Selmer series iii tenor (pre jubilee) 559xxx serial and I absolutely love it.
Nevertheless it has ONE problem. The high E with the front F plays incredibly sharp! : / while the Front F plays in tune. I can solve this by fingering the low D (right ring finger) key but if muffles the note and it’s just not that convenient. I can’t but think that this is a structural problem with the horn. I’ve tried 3 different necks and the problem is still there. Any ideas??? Thank you


Zin,

 

[1saxman]

How are you fingering the E3? If you play the conventional E3, does it play in tune? I mean D and D# palm keys with E side key. 'Front E' is an alternate fingering that may or may not work for you although it should work on a premium sax like the III. You bought a used sax and have no idea what may have been done to it in the past. You probably should take it to someone familiar with Selmer saxes for a look-over.

 

[Zinharet]

Hi Saxman, thanks for your response. I’m not fingering the palm key and the regular E3 with both palm keys does play in tune! That’s why it is so intriguing. I did take it to a tech that knows Selmers and said maybe is a thing in modern selmer that is more accentuated in this one. It is a used sax but it has not had much play life.

 

[Guto]

for your reference (no pun intended):

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?26653-Tuning-Issues-on-my-new-serie-III
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?81093-Front-E-on-Reference-horns

 

[Zinharet]

Thanks Guto!

 

[Dr G]

Hi Saxman, thanks for your response. I'm not fingering the palm key and the regular E3 with both palm keys does play in tune! That's why it is so intriguing. I did take it to a tech that knows Selmers and said maybe is a thing in modern selmer that is more accentuated in this one. It is a used sax but it has not had much play life.

Have you tried adjusting the actuator that sets the key height for the front F key? I have owned both Serie III and Ref 36, and could play front E in tune on each. Setup matters.

 

[Zinharet]

I have not, but wouldn’t that make the Front F play flat? Front F plays in tune as is and it is opening around 4mm. I’m also not 100% sure what do you mean by actuator but i asume is that mini rod that can ve adjusted from below with a screwdriver?

 

[Zinharet]

this one? https://flic.kr/p/2joewDN

 

[Dr G]

I have not, but wouldn't that make the Front F play flat? Front F plays in tune as is and it is opening around 4mm. I'm also not 100% sure what do you mean by actuator but i asume is that mini rod that can ve adjusted from below with a screwdriver?

Yes, that is correct. There is a range of what works best to correctly voice both notes. See if closing it slightly improves the E without flatting the F. At worst, you can put it back to where it was.

 

[DaveR]

Hello there!

I just got a Selmer series iii tenor (pre jubilee) 559xxx serial and I absolutely love it.
Nevertheless it has ONE problem. The high E with the front F plays incredibly sharp! : / while the Front F plays in tune. I can solve this by fingering the low D (right ring finger) key but if muffles the note and it's just not that convenient. I can't but think that this is a structural problem with the horn. I've tried 3 different necks and the problem is still there. Any ideas??? Thank you

Zin,

This is a characteristic of all Series 3 tenors that I have played.. I've played S3s for over 20 years, owned 2 and tested many more and this intonation issue has been common to every single one. In fact it's common on modern tenors generally IMO.
I suppose you could alter the opening of the front F mechanism, which will flatten the F too of course. Your only real option is to get used to it!

 

[Jazz House]

I had this problem quite badly on a Yanagisawa T-500 I used to own. Pretty much every note on that thing was spot on in tune except for Front E. In short, it was really annoying.

At first, I tried reducing the height of the front F adjuster as has been suggested previously. This did bring down the pitch, but it also ruined the response on high G, which I wasn't happy with as a trade off.

I ended up correcting the problem by reducing the size of the high F tone hole.

I inserted what was effectively a crescent to the side of the tone hole furthest from the start of the tube. This is very different to a conventional crescent in that it does not affect the tuning when using the tone hole conventionally (palm F). This is because when you play Front F or E, the high F tone hole is behaving as a 'vent' and not as a conventional tone hole (or so I've read on this forum!). My crescent lowered the pitch of the Front E without ruining the response of high G or significantly altering the pitch of palm F.

If you want to go down this path, I would start by taking off the palm F key and experimenting with blue tac crescents until you get the desired result. Anything you do will be easily reversed. If you reach a solution, take a picture and have your technician make one of cork or a similar material. I made mine out stacked fabric band aids cut to a thickness slightly thinner than the sidewall of the tone hole. It helps to have a sharp blade!

 

[datsaxman]

Hahaha. My Yanagisawa does that too. After some fiddling, I just use the side keys for E. Not great to lose that Front E, but ...

 

[Zinharet]

Thank you all for the responses. I’m only now going to fiddle with the actuator and see what happens. Not sure I would go down the road of making custom crescents but it’s great to know that that is a possibility. Most of all I’m glad to know I’m not alone here and this is not a problem of my horn only. Will post the update soon. Thanks again!

 

[Guto]

here is another data point for you. in this tutorial by Brian Hayes, he comments on this alternate high E fingering. when he plays it on his Mark VII tenor, you can hear it sounds a little bit sharp as well compared to the regular fingering (and he comments on that):

 

[lostcircuits]

here is another data point for you. in this tutorial by Brian Hayes, he comments on this alternate high E fingering. when he plays it on his Mark VII tenor, you can hear it sounds a little bit sharp as well compared to the regular fingering:

Are you sure it is A and not E? Listening to Brian, I can never figure if it is Ayy or Aiii

 

[Guto]

Are you sure it is A and not E? Listening to Brian, I can never figure if it is Ayy or Aiii

no, in this section of the video he is speaking about the high E, topic of this discussion here. he uses that E as a stepping stone to eventually get to altissimo A later in the video.
the relevant part of the video I'm pointing to goes from 2:30 to 3:00. if you listen to the beginning though, you will hear the context better.

 

[Dr G]

Thank you all for the responses. I'm only now going to fiddle with the actuator and see what happens. Not sure I would go down the road of making custom crescents but it's great to know that that is a possibility. Most of all I'm glad to know I'm not alone here and this is not a problem of my horn only. Will post the update soon. Thanks again!

I'm glad to see all these responses, Zinharet.

FWIW, I also recall having fits when I first got my Serie III because intonation was all over the place - until I learned that I was imposing on it all the corrections that I had learned for my Balanced Action. Once you commit to a horn, and invest the time, all these lil' niggles will fade away as you learn to automatically compensate for them. That's part of why I don't like having a bunch of horns around - each one is different and needs its own attention.

The Serie III is a great tenor. Spend some time on it, and it will only get better (and so will you).

Enjoy!

 

[Morph1590]

I've had the same problem with my Series II tenor. I've moved the actuator to reduce how much the keys open, and this has helped. Otherwise it's all about voicing, tongue position etc. to get the pitch down - not ideal but with practice you can achieve a lot, there's lots of pitch flexibility up there!

 

[Zinharet]

So the actuator was already at the most efficient position. I think Dr. G you are right on the money; I’ve played vintage tenors in my past and have definitively learned compensation habits. I think learning to fix one note is something I can live with! Thank you all!

 

[lostcircuits]

no, in this section of the video he is speaking about the high E, topic of this discussion here. he uses that E as a stepping stone to eventually get to altissimo A later in the video.
the relevant part of the video I'm pointing to goes from 2:30 to 3:00. if you listen to the beginning though, you will hear the context better.

I was just kidding. Ironically, I had just been watching the exact same YouTube clip, I like Brian's stuff. very clear and concise without rambling on for hours before getting to the point. And I enjoy his accent but it makes it sometimes a bit hard to follow.