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Or they could open the "best actor" category to all genders, & make it about raw acting talent, not gender identity. Of course, doing that would make more sense if casting were more equitable, decisionmakers were more representative of a diverse population, gendered roles were less stereotypical, & so forth.
Sure, and maybe that's the way to go. My point wasn't about the award categories themselves though, but about the way that language has been and continues to be used. If you say simply "actor", most people will (reasonably) think of a male actor, not because they are sexist or ignorant of the fact that there are women who act, but because the term "actor" has historically referred almost exclusively male actors. My point in referencing the award categories was intended to show that this usage (i.e., of the isolated term "actor" to refer specifically to male actors) is not strictly historical, but remains in widespread use.
 

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And undermine the value of the award?

Splitting hairs here, we're really discussing a translation issue. Inherent sexism exists though, and it's not being denied. the movements are surely helping get rid of these statements, but its Just not really applicable to this scenario
Which value? Sorry to be cynical here. And no, I am not really serious about this either.
 

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Which value? Sorry to be cynical here. And no, I am not really serious about this either.
I suppose the value is with the holder? Lol

I've never truly been a fan of movie awards, generally preferring movies that don't do as well. A few exceptions exist though
 

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My point wasn't about the award categories themselves though, but about the way that language has been and continues to be used. If you say simply "actor", most people will (reasonably) think of a male actor, not because they are sexist or ignorant of the fact that there are women who act, but because the term "actor" has historically referred almost exclusively male actors. My point in referencing the award categories was intended to show that this usage (i.e., of the isolated term "actor" to refer specifically to male actors) is not strictly historical, but remains in widespread use.
Social progress may happen slowly, but it often begins with a change in common nomenclature -- which can stimulate new thinking about how & why various individuals are welcomed or excluded, rewarded or exploited, protected or considered expendable.

With all due respect, I'd ask you to think about how "actresses" generally stop getting work after they reach the age of 25 or 30, whereas "actors" are permitted to ply their craft well into advanced age. Or think about how defining college athletes as "amateurs" denies them a share of the vast revenues they generate for others.

Nomenclature is seldom neutral or solely descriptive: it is freighted with connotations & assumptions, some of which perpetuate gross inequities.
 

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Social progress may happen slowly, but it often begins with a change in common nomenclature -- which can stimulate new thinking about how & why various individuals are welcomed or excluded, rewarded or exploited, protected or considered expendable.

With all due respect, I'd ask you to think about how "actresses" generally stop getting work after they reach the age of 25 or 30, whereas "actors" are permitted to ply their craft well into advanced age. Or think about how defining college athletes as "amateurs" denies them a share of the vast revenues they generate for others.

Nomenclature is seldom neutral or solely descriptive: it is freighted with connotations & assumptions, some of which perpetuate gross inequities.
My mistake. I didn't mean to interrupt your sermon.

Preach on; I'll step away from your soapbox.
 

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No need to step away, I've said my say & gladly relinquish the soapbox to others. I always appreciate your contributions to the collective discourse, mmichel.
 

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FWIW, I think that's just a result of translation from the French version (which almost certainly uses the indefinite pronoun "on"), to English, which does not really have a comparable pronoun (don't get me started on the singular "they"). I highly doubt that they intended to neglect female saxophonists.
As someone who studied a foreign language in college (German, not French), I agree that this is most likely a translator or non-native speaker applying formal rules and not following colloquial American usage. It's also very possible that British English treats this issue differently, I do not know. I have a lot of sympathy for the writer in this case because it's actually really easy to make a seemingly simple mistake and offend someone where no offense was intended.

The Chicago Manual of Style (I have the 17th edition, published in 2017), still recommends not using third person plural pronouns in this context in formal writing though they note that it was "rapidly gaining acceptance" (in 2017). They recommend editing the phrase to avoid using a personal pronoun. They basically say that if you use the third person plural pronoun where a singular pronoun would historically be used, the writer looses credibility with one audience, but use a third person singular pronoun and the author looses credibility with a different group. They even have a list of strategies that can be employed to do so. I am summarizing a complex issue, but the references are paragraphs 5.48 and 5.251 through 5.260 in the event that someone is having a boring COVID Saturday night.

All that said, sexism is real.
 

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I'm not offended by their choice of words only by the price. I would love to give one of these a blow, but I doubt I'll ever be able to.
 
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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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Accusing Selemer of sexism over google translate and how the french language works is ridiculous.
They should not really be using Google translate for marketing, a lot worse than this could happen. In an ad they should be using a professional translator who would be aware of how this kind of language could potentially work against them

As it seems to be on social media I suppose it isn't quite the same as an "official" ad copy - but they should still be careful with their words.

Whether anyone agrees with some current attitudes or not, this kind of language is often viewed as sexist, so it's in their own interest they should be careful.
 

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And undermine the value of the award?

Splitting hairs here, we're really discussing a translation issue. Inherent sexism exists though, and it's not being denied. the movements are surely helping get rid of these statements, but its Just not really applicable to this scenario
Curious which category an actor like Elliot (Ellen) Page. Would he/they go into the male or female category?
The French society is incredibly sexist (Or Sexy as Macron used to say). They absolutely didn't notice that all of the performers in the Supreme launch were male. If they were asked about it privately, they would give the same answer they did publicly... what do you mean... look at the Saxophone. This is ingrained into the society in the same way that there is systemic racism against the Indigenous peoples in Canada. It isn't really out there, but .......
 

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I suppose the value is with the holder? Lol
I've never truly been a fan of movie awards, generally preferring movies that don't do as well. A few exceptions exist though
True, getting an award is always great for the recipient. I just can't get myself to watch a display of fashion outcroppings that appears to have become more important than the achievements. But if people enjoy it, no problem, as long as it keeps them from doing other things
 

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it looks like they've got the message and changed the text the OP posted to be more inclusive:

102807
 

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FWIW, I think that's just a result of translation from the French version (which almost certainly uses the indefinite pronoun "on"), to English, which does not really have a comparable pronoun (don't get me started on the singular "they"). I highly doubt that they intended to neglect female saxophonists.
you're probably right it was a translation issue but not from "on". "on" means one (as in someone), not him.
that phrase "... an instrument that suits him" in French would have been "... un instrument qui lui convient". "lui" is a single pronoun used for both him or her.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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Well this happens a lot. It happens on here - especially with phrases like:

"take it to your technician, he will know what's wrong" (as in "I went to the doctor about my piles"... "What did he recommend?")
"lots of guys are using this kind of setup..."

I hesitate to mention this because bringing such things up puts you in danger of being called a snowflake or woke (or worse). But all I'm doing is pointing it out, not giving an opinion either way.

There are two possible reactions:

"PC gone mad, I don't care I'll still say it, if people don't like it tough..."

or

"Goodness me, it didn't occur to me how it may come across as sexist...I'll be more careful in future"

Like it or not, agree with it or not, these are different times for many of the older folk.
 

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Well this happens a lot. It happens on here - especially with phrases like:

"take it to your technician, he will know what's wrong" (as in "I went to the doctor about my piles"... "What did he recommend?")
"lots of guys are using this kind of setup..."

I hesitate to mention this because bringing such things up puts you in danger of being called a snowflake or woke (or worse). But all I'm doing is pointing it out, not giving an opinion either way.

There are two possible reactions:

"PC gone mad, I don't care I'll still say it, if people don't like it tough..."

or

"Goodness me, it didn't occur to me how it may come across as sexist...I'll be more careful in future"

Like it or not, agree with it or not, these are different times for many of the older folk.
Yeah, but as the saying goes: "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

I'd argue that a good faith attempt to correct an error/oversight in language is fine. However, immediately jumping to labeling a person/company sexist for such an error (as the OP did) is not.

Also, FWIW, among the younger generation in the US, the term "guys" seems to have lost any of the vestigal gender valence it once had. Young women are just as likely to use it to refer to a group exclusively composed of other women as to refer to men or groups of mixed gender.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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I'd argue that a good faith attempt to correct an error/oversight in language is fine. However, immediately jumping to labeling a person/company sexist for such an error (as the OP did) is not.
I agree totally
Also, FWIW, among the younger generation in the US, the term "guys" seems to have lost any of the vestigal gender valence it once had.
I also agree in that I'm aware of that way of using it, but it is a nuanced argument that may be more relevant to the US and even then it still should be within the context.

It's a convenient argument that is maybe only relevant in some small contexts.

I'm far from being a proper male feminist flag waver for so-called political correctness (ask my wife) but I think this is interesting. See here, it can still be problematical:

 

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There's no shortage of sexism, age-ism, racism, & other unpleasant biases baked into the English language & its idioms, many so subtle or familiar that they fall from our lips without a thought. I'm no better than anybody else in this regard; I've said things that make me cringe to recall. Language changes, society changes, & it's all too easy to give offense without evil intent.

I've learned from my millennial son & daughter that folks have the right to be who they want to be, & to be addressed the way they wish to be addressed. It's not political correctness,* just common courtesy.

* Historical/linguistic footnote: If I'm not mistaken, the phrase "politically correct/incorrect" originated in the Soviet Union as a label with which hard-line Communists would discredit one another. In America in the '70s, I first heard the phrase used by Berkeley lefties to mock their own self-righteousness. It was an ironic joke at their own expense, not a serious indictment of anybody else.
 

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it looks like they've got the message and changed the text the OP posted to be more inclusive:
Let's talk about the substance then. Decent, zoomable photos of the full array of Supreme finish options are on display at sax.co.uk. Kudos to Selmer for continuing to offer all these choices, even if the gold-plated and sterling silver versions are ridiculously expensive. The gold-plated Supreme looks almost identical to the Supreme in dark gold lacquer. In fact, they look so similar that I can't be certain that the folks at sax.co.uk (or maybe at Selmer, if they supplied the photos) haven't simply used the same images for both finishes.

The silver versions look about as you'd expect. It's hard to see the engraving on the silver-plated version.

I'm surprised to say this, but as a black lacquer aficionado, I think the black Supreme looks gaudy. Black lacquer has always been the finish that best shows off a horn's engraving, for better or for worse. I think this effect is terrific with Yanagisawa's traditional floral engraving (I have two horns like this) or with Selmer's superb Jubilee engraving (I have a Series III alto like this). But making the Supreme's engraving pop out is counterproductive, IMO. It looks more jumbled and garish when it's so easy to see. There's a big flying insect sitting on the bell! And there are goofy cubes and stems climbing all the way up the body tube. I'd have to go with the dark gold lacquer on this model.
 

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See here, it can still be problematical:

For me, this column is a textbook example of seeking out offense where none exists. It's as if I got upset at people for using terms like "adroit", "dexterity", "dextrous", "sinister", or "gauche" (I'm left-handed). Sure, the terms are evidence of a vestigal bias against southpaws embedded in the language, but no one uses them that way anymore. Anyone expressing alarm at these terms would be rightly dismissed (see what I did there) as either trolling or being overly precious.

If Jane Garvey (whose tweet was used as the authoritative source in the column) doesn't want to be referred to as one of "you guys", that's her right, and I'd respect her wishes, but it's incredibly presumptuous to seek to admonish other women (or men) for addressing each other that way.
 
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