[starletofthesea]

Hello all! I'm (finally) looking to lay down my current Selmer-Bundy II horn and find a new one. With a student budget I've turned to ebay and found a pretty decent (well, more than decent) Selmer Signet (serial number 642594). However, I'm not sure if this is the kind of horn I should be looking for for wind ensemble.

So, my questions:
Is this considered a vintage horn? If so, will it still be good? (I come from the orchestral world where older is better, but I've been told that this isn't so in band).

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[maddenma]

I'm assuming this is the one you're talking about:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SELMER-SIGN...700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5644c6bd2c

There's a better one here for slightly less money.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Selmer-Sign...102?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb88b955e

Both of these are essentially the Buescher Aristocrat model 140. A very fine horn. In it's day it was considered Selmer USA's best, but was viewed, at that time, as more of an intermediate horn than a pro horn as it was competing against the Mark VI/VII and the YAS-61 that had better keywork. That said, the 50's Bueschers, that this horn essentially is, were (and still are) serious pro horns.

Vintage is loosely anything older than 1980. Vintage doesn't always mean good, however. Lot's of old garbage out there. This one certain isn't garbage, though it doesn't command a high price.

For that money, you certainly won't be dissappointed if it's in playing condition. Certainly a step or three up from the Bundy II.

Older is better, newer is better. Really all depends on where you're coming from. The older horns don't have the favorable ergonomics of the modern instruments, but they generally are valued for their tone. Lots of discussion (and arguments) on this forum about new vs. old, but my choice is obvious (below).

 

[starletofthesea]

Thank you for your insight (and the other listing)! The cheaper one defiantly looks in better condition, but I'm concerned that the seller doesn't give a serial number. Is that something to be worrisome over, or not?

 

[GT]

FWIW, I think that Mad is right on target here. But, if one of these doesn't work out, make sure that what you end up with (as far as Signets go) has the "S" brace between the bell and body.

 

[GT]

Sorry for the double post......but I wouldn't worry about the S/N as long as it retains the "S" brace.

 

[maddenma]

That's my take on it as well.

 

[maddenma]

BTW, I'd just pick up the better looking horn at the BIN. If it's playing as indicated by the seller, you'll not get a better price and may actually lose it at auction.

 

[Grumps]

Both of these are essentially the Buescher Aristocrat...

Actually, common lore has the Bundys being based on Aristocrats and the Signets being based on the 400.

An alto Signet with the S brace got me through grade school and college. Then my son learned to play on it as well. A good, sturdy horn, but not what one would consider a true pro model.

 

[starletofthesea]

So would it not be considered an upgrade from a Bundy II?

 

[Grumps]

The Signet was actually one of those first "intermediate" horns. So yeah, more of an upgrade than a lateral move... but only ever so slightly. It won't have the high F# key if you're looking for one of those. But it will act as more of an inducement to learn altissimo.

 

[maddenma]

Wrong bell keys, Grumps. I haven't done measurements, but lore aside, it looks for all the world like a 140.

Ideally, if a vintage horn for wind ensembles is what you really want, you would try to get one of these, the horn those Signets are based on.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Buesch...913?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415e586659

or this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Bue...843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c9b9f97b

These are some of the most desireable of the breed. Generally thought of as "classical" saxophones, but they are very versitile and can be used for anything.

 

[ThreeSixTwoFive]

What you will gain from the Signet is better tone and excellent intonation. You may sacrifice some ergonomics and yes, the high F# key. But frankly not many care about that key.

The frustration I have with the Signet is the heavy action of the low C# key. The Signet has a simplified version of the the old Buescher bell key mechanism. This makes the low note key cluster less slick and rather heavy. But the Signet can offer a powerful and focused tone and remarkably good intonation. So heavy action or not, I have really enjoyed the one I had. How you do as well!

 

[Grumps]

Wrong bell keys, Grumps.

The later 400's had similar bell keys on the right side, and those were the ones the Signet was allegedly based upon. Something about the angle of the bell flare rings true as well.

 

[maddenma]

Not particularly arguing, as I don't have measurements to back me up, but rather just thinking out loud.

Could it really be that Selmer USA redesigned the 400 with l/h bell keys long after they'd already gutted the line to make it cheaper? Seems to me like it would have been easier to just trot out the old 'crat' tooling, call it a Signet, and voila! They have an upgraded horn over the Bundy.

The 400 had to be more expensive to produce with it's more complicated bell key mechanism.

I wonder if anyone's measured both?

 

[starletofthesea]

Wait, are you talking about a Buescher 400?

such as this one?: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BUESCHER-AL...ultDomain_0&hash=item3f03d47e66#ht_3241wt_957

 

[maddenma]

While that may or may not be a "400" (given Grumps certainty you could get them with l/h bell keys), it's a mid-70's stencil of some Buescher horn with the clunky "New Aristocrat" spatula from the mid-30's. I would also be wary, as the auction includes spare pads with no resonators, a recognition that the horn needs pads, and an overhaul is another $400-$600.

You can do better for that money.

Here's a similar Buescher 400 from roughly the same vintage. Notably it has the l/h bell keys, but I seriously think this is an Aristocrat body labeled as a 400. Not that that's a bad thing for "legit" music.

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=2567

 

[super20dan]

the early signet with the s brace is a bundy with fancy engraving -its not based on the 400. dosnt have the large bell-not to mention the underslug neck (tho not all 400 had the under slung neck). the later rh bell key model is the same as the later 400. which is a very good horn and often overlooked

 

[super20dan]

plaid 2 gigs this weekend on the 100$ signet. it delived the good in spades. awesume fast action and the biggest sound of ANY alto i have ever played. killer horn and always overlooked