[Hassles]

【株式会社エンジニア】ネジザウルスでお馴染みの工具メーカー

プロフェッショナル用工具メーカーのエンジニア。元祖ネジ外し工具「ネジザウルス」や様々なモノを切断できる「鉄腕ハサミ」、汎用型ながら高い精度を実現した「精密圧着ペンチ」など、1000アイテム以上の便利工具を取り揃えております。株式会社エンジニア

www.nejisaurus.engineer.jp

https://www.amazon.com/Engineer-Pz-58-Screw-Pliers-Gt/dp/B002L6HJAA

VAMPLIERS® 6.25″ SCREW EXTRACTION PLIERS - Vampire Tools

High-quality specialty pliers to extract stripped or stuck screws and rounded nuts or bolts. Remove stripped rusted corroded, damaged, jammed screws, bolts, nuts Made in Japan from high quality carbon steel Designed with VamPLIERS® Technology Target screws can be extracted using top jaw or side...

www.vampiretools.com

I have decided to add this post as result of discussions I have had with member PigSquealer.

I am currently struggling to disassemble a Kohlert 57 alto sax which has been long neglected with most of it's hinge rods stuck in their posts OR fused to the hinge tubes. Anyone working on saxophones will have on occasions seen hinge rods that have partially unscrewed themselves. On a long neglected horn where everything is stuck there is only so much force that can be applied with a screwdriver without the risk of snapping off one side of the rod slot. IF, there is a slight protrusion of the rod from the post the pliers (linked above) can exert much greater force than can be applied with a screwdriver. Note: The pliers jaws must be oriented so as to not crush the two slot sides together. I find this tool an invaluable part of my toolkit and cannot recommend them highly enough. You won't often reach for them but.....when you do you will be glad to have them. Mine are Japanese made at 6" in length although similar products are available - also linked above

I hope this little memo helps some of you. take care.

BTW - yes, the 2nd image is the Kohlert 57 and my pliers incorrectly oriented but...I had just rotated the post about 90 degrees and so joyous was I that I ran across the house for my camera. With this memo posted I ran (equally quickly) to the 'fridge for a celebratory beer

Hassles

 

[chilehed]

Oh, I'm buying one of those RIGHT NOW! Thanks!

 

[Hassles]

Oh, I'm buying one of those RIGHT NOW! Thanks!

let us know your thoughts - please

 

[frasermanx]

If the rod is completely fused on all sides inside the barrel you're very unlikely to get it out using any method other than using alum which dissolves the rust and freeze the good part of the rod if there is any I've been doing this for years and I've been frustrated but alum is the only solution as far as I'm concerned but hey I could be wrong

 

[turf3]

I prefer not to use serrated jaws on things like a pivot rod. I have a couple of pair smooth jaw needle nose pliers that I use in instrument repair and have not had any trouble pulling a rod with them. If I can't get it out by pulling it out with those, I would go from below and drive it out with a pin punch. And it that's not going to do it, I'd sooner just unsolder the offending post and get the whole mess up on the bench where I can work on it. Soldering a post on is easier than standing on your head to avoid doing so.

 

[JayeLID]

It's a cool tool, I mean I can see it as being useful in those circumstances. Am glad to hear it can work on something as small as a pivot rod end.

It would not, as noted, help you much with rods rusted to the interior of key barrels. Also if the rod is stuck in there and NO portion of rod protrudes, not much help.

But, indeed, it probably would help more than just using a screwdriver alone, and indeed....smooth-jawed pliers would provide zero 'grip' on the offending rod end.

Wouldn't do much for screws which are buggered tho, unless oddly there was enough of screwhead prortuding from post (which is unusual).

Cool tho, good idea, the vertical grooves as opposed to horizontal.

 

[saxoclese]

An "old school" technique I learned from my mentor is to grip the exposed end of the rod with a pair of wire cutters. It does not harm the rod if you stay in the area that goes inside the post. The cutter "digs into" the metal and allows you to pull it out with a bit of force. I sometimes tap the tool with a hammer to coax the rod out if it is stubborn.

 

[lostcircuits]

An "old school" technique I learned from my mentor is to grip the exposed end of the rod with a pair of wire cutters. It does not harm the rod if you stay in the area that goes inside the post. The cutter "digs into" the metal and allows you to pull it out with a bit of force. I sometimes tap the tool with a hammer to coax the rod out if it is stubborn.

Also, you can use the post as a point of leverage by pivoting the wire cutter and keep the distribution of force very limited, i.e. there is no risk of bending anything.

 

[Hassles]

there are a myriad of ways to coerce a stubborn rod from its grip on a post when penetrants fail including heating and freezing / cutting the rod / unsoldering the posts. These handy pliers got the job done on this one rod and who cares if the rod is damaged (which it isn't by the way) - it can be replaced or repaired. The pliers enabled more torsional energy to be applied than could be achieved with a screwdriver. Hopefully down the track, when some of you have had experience with these pliers you can add your comments below. I definitely prefer to use these pliers in preference to side cutters aka wire cutters.

 

[Hassles]

If the rod is completely fused on all sides inside the barrel you're very unlikely to get it out using any method other than using alum which dissolves the rust and freeze the good part of the rod if there is any I've been doing this for years and I've been frustrated but alum is the only solution as far as I'm concerned but hey I could be wrong

how would you suggest applying the alum to the posts and rods?

 

[PigSquealer]

Thousand variables, thousand tools. Any port in a storm. If it gets the job done it’s a good tool. I’ve seen people use screwdrivers for lots of things. Including removing screws.

Thanks for posting the tool Hassles.

Sincerely, Tim Taylor

 

[Hassles]

to coin a phrase - there is more than one way to skin a cat. Not everybody agrees on any one solution to a problem. I hope these pliers please and assist some of you as they have assisted me. All I wanted to achieve was a movement in the rod to "break" the union between rod and post. Once that union was broken the penetrant had better access and twelve hours later the rod was removed - courtesy of the pliers - a little scotchbrite tidied the rod.
'

 

[JayeLID]

how would you suggest applying the alum to the posts and rods?

My understanding with Alum is, you gotta put the horn body submerged in the solution. The Alum then only attacks ferrous metals, not the brass or lacq.

If someone knows a spot-application etchnique with Alum, I would be really interested in knowing.

All in all, however, if it takes a submergence...I'd rather just unsolder the damn posts and take the entire stack off and have at it.

However I could see it coming in handy of one were to, say, unsolder a key saddle with the frozen key on it, or maybe an entire neck with a frozen key....and submerge that in an Alum solution, in a smaller jar or container.....

 

[Bari Sax Guy]

I'm not a tech type, Bless all of those Sax techs out there, but these pliers would be handy for household projects.
My favorite new tool is a cordless Dremel, I bought it when my old Dremel died.

 

[Hassles]

Update:

I thought the upper stack keys had fused to the hinge rod of the 57 alto.

After liberal applications of PB Blaster and laying saxophone in the sun on this very hot day. I had all keys moving on the hinge-rod expect the B key - which consistently rotated the rod. I was relieved, one fused key instead of the entire stack - where is the champagne me thinks.

I managed to unscrew the upper stack hinge-rod free from the receiving post "and no more". I noted the G key hinge tube drop towards the body. Suspicions arose about a bent, rather than fused, hinge rod. There was nothing that was gonna' work so - I again reached for my screw removal pliers - and began to twist the hinge rod and extract another few mm - only to find the B key was no longer binding but the bis key was. The rod was obviously bent. Confirmed: the little 57 had experienced some trauma. With efforts that challenged my wrist the screw removal pliers managed to achieve that which my parallel jaw pliers could not and I extracted the bent rod - eventually. The entire upper stack has now been removed and yes - with the efforts required to extract the rod these pliers have bitten into and marred the rods surface. A little filing, scotchbrite and glass-paper have sorted that out but - the jobs done. I cannot detect any binding of any key on a straight rod and the posts "appear" to have remained aligned but until I secure a new rod or straighten the existent rod I won't know. You would "never" want to use this tool for maintenance but...faced with real problems - they have again proved their worth.

In this instance I was gonna' apply heat and a freezing agent as my next option - which would have achieved nothing because the bend in the rod was the problem, not a fusion between rod and hinge tube as I had initially suspected.

regards
Hassles

PS: I want 10% of all sales from this tool for the next four weeks

 

[frasermanx]

My understanding with Alum is, you gotta put the horn body submerged in the solution. The Alum then only attacks ferrous metals, not the brass or lacq.

If someone knows a spot-application etchnique with Alum, I would be really interested in knowing.

All in all, however, if it takes a submergence...I'd rather just unsolder the damn posts and take the entire stack off and have at it.

However I could see it coming in handy of one were to, say, unsolder a key saddle with the frozen key on it, or maybe an entire neck with a frozen key....and submerge that in an Alum solution, in a smaller jar or container.....

No you don't need to immerse the entire horn in the alum solution just the area where the rust prevents the rod from being extracted there is information on how to do this if you've read the Eric brand book or the Saska book I believe it's in there also it's been described here on SOTW and it works the alum solution dissolves the rust all the rust. Don't use food grade alum you need the industrial version I'm not sure what the difference is but it might be in strength purity etc

 

[PigSquealer]

Update:

I thought the upper stack keys had fused to the hinge rod of the 57 alto.

After liberal applications of PB Blaster and laying saxophone in the sun on this very hot day. I had all keys moving on the hinge-rod expect the B key - which consistently rotated the rod. I was relieved, one fused key instead of the entire stack - where is the champagne me thinks.

I managed to unscrew the upper stack hinge-rod free from the receiving post "and no more". I noted the G key hinge tube drop towards the body. Suspicions arose about a bent, rather than fused, hinge rod. There was nothing that was gonna' work so - I again reached for my screw removal pliers - and began to twist the hinge rod and extract another few mm - only to find the B key was no longer binding but the bis key was. The rod was obviously bent. Confirmed: the little 57 had experienced some trauma. With efforts that challenged my wrist the screw removal pliers managed to achieve that which my parallel jaw pliers could not and I extracted the bent rod - eventually. The entire upper stack has now been removed and yes - with the efforts required to extract the rod these pliers have bitten into and marred the rods surface. A little filing, scotchbrite and glass-paper have sorted that out but - the jobs done. I cannot detect any binding of any key on a straight rod and the posts "appear" to have remained aligned but until I secure a new rod or straighten the existent rod I won't know. You would "never" want to use this tool for maintenance but...faced with real problems - they have again proved their worth.

In this instance I was gonna' apply heat and a freezing agent as my next option - which would have achieved nothing because the bend in the rod was the problem, not a fusion between rod and hinge tube as I had initially suspected.

regards
Hassles

PS: I want 10% of all sales from this tool for the next four weeks

Sounds like you already got your monies worth. Stuck anything can be real PIA. Two drops of the right juice helped save the day too.
Where's your sax repair / build thread ?
Here's your 10% ?. You do take chickens as payment

 

[Hassles]

Chickens? ? ? well everything is being quarantined at present so I don't see chickens being an issue heh heh heh although to be honest I'd prefer an Armadillo ;-)

I have some horrid tools in my mechanics toolbox which I prefer not to use but.....they are there for a reason and when needed they prove themselves to be precious and worthy of their presence. I have 'never' before even thought about screw removal pliers being beneficial for saxophone work but....faced with a problem they got the job done and I didn't have to cut the rod or unsolder a post - phew. The big issue now is the low B and Bb hinge tubes being fused to the (long) hinge-rod which pivots in the post. This will be an exercise in patience and perseverance. Gonna' be another hot day tomorrow so I'll lay it (the saxophone) in the sun and apply more PB Blaster. Fingers crossed the heat will help. I have essentially considered all rollers as lost and its those smallest rods that concern me the most.