[milandro]

Schenkelaar bought stencils also from other brands and produced some horns with the worst rolled tone holes that I've ever seen anywhere and that were by no means related to Keilwerth, although they certainly bought body tubes from Keilwerth

 

[milandro]

the alto is a Keilwerth stencil (they did stencil keilwerth) and the soprano most probably a Weltklang (B&S). Schenkelaars has also bought Orsi.... there a a few sold now on Dutch websites.

 

[milandro]

Schenkelaars did all of those things: made their own , imported parts and body tubes, imported complete Keilwerths, Orsi, B&S-Weltklang and (G-D forbid ) Arta Guban.

SML was exporting to the Netherlands but their main buyer was Ansingh in Zwolle which sold their instruments with both stamps SML and theirs.

 

[milandro]

I have just bought a silver plate Keilwerth Toneking engraved Schenkelaars.

Very good horn. A Keilwerth trough and through.

 

[milandro]

Post a picture please...

These are the pics by the vendor.

The Schenkelaars which they made themselves have a round and small bell to body brace, the Romanian imported Guban have a different brace too.

View attachment 55573

View attachment 55574

this is the same model Toneking

 

[milandro]

No, there is only the Schenkelaars machine made engraving on the side of the bell and the serial number on neck and body. But it is definitely a Toneking one of those made at the same time when Couf was buying his and the King Tempo were made.

 

[milandro]

To my knowledge, Schenkelaars made saxophones of their own design, saxophones made with JK parts, then they sold saxophones made by JK, like this tenor, and then at the end of their commercial adventure they sold some student models made by Arta Guban Timisoara.

I have seen all of these and many examples of each type.

No saxophone had any other indication other than the engraved name (different engraving types) Schenkelaars.

They are pretty easy to recognize. In my opinion one NEEDS to be able to identify the Romanian ones.

The Arta Guban Timisoara ( Romanian saxophone in the picture here) have a bell to body brace which looks a bit like a SML

 

[milandro]

No, there are no other marks that the engraving and the serial number , which is consistent for this model, with the Keilwerth serial number for a 1978 Toneking series IV the same serial range featured also in the Couf, Armstrong Heritage, King Tempo or Bundy Special

 

[milandro]

I have made some new pictures .

On top you see the JK toneking tenor with the JK badge and at the bottom you will see the Schenkelaars .

There are some very minor differences but they are really minor.

 

[milandro]

yes, as I said they are almost identical. This Toneking era is , as I wrote before, the one which generated very many stencils. At this stage Keilwerth was selling Couf, Armstrong Heritage, King Tempo or Bundy Special and many more.

 

[milandro]

Robert Siour & Emilen Beaugnier, two associates who made this saxophone. which was certainly made in the '20 nowhere near the 1960!

https://www.google.nl/search?client...ATUV9eQHo2CaN-jpZAB#q=R.+Siour+&+E.+Beaugnier

They were one of the so many manufacturers of Mantes La Ville (dozens of factories were " across the road" to each other there... they were almost ALL there!).

Robert Siour & Emilen Beaugnier acquired many patents in the late '20.

Emilien Beaugnier was one of the many Beaugniers involved in the making of wind instruments.Maurice his son, is the more well known Beaugnier, not Robert.

It looks is an exceptionally good state ( at least the parts that you are showing) for its age, unfortunately its short range, since it expends only to Eb won't make this very popular or useful for playing.

I would also make sure that this is in low pitch rather than high pitch.

Having said that its value is purely historical and might interest a collector but not a player. These saxophones are not particularly rare.

 

[milandro]

Because, as you can see in this picture, they were , probably the importer of this saxophone, mentioned here on the engraved cartouche.

E. Schenkelaars, Kleine Berg, Eindhoven

 

[milandro]

Add Santoni to the list of many who sold saxophones to Schenkelaars , I've just seen one advertised in the NL ( for a ridiculously high price) made by Santoni and Identical to their Buffet Evette stencils.

One of the most ridiculous thing about this particular horn which just surfaced is that the owner had it silver plated and overhauled 20 years ago (or so he says , he appears to be a seller of general " antique" junk ) , the seller concludes that THEREFORE, after 20 years, the horn is in perfect condition ( while it looks recently rubbed) the other incredible thing is that someone has engraved Bong County on it which appears to be a district of Liberia... .

In the '80 Schenkelaars of Einhoven shut down and old their name and remaining horns to a shop First Brass in Noordwijk-NL (Music All In). Later any remaining tooling went to the Adams shop-factory in Thorn (NL).

 

[milandro]

I don't claim it's really a player, but if you look closely you can see 3 side keys (the E is longer than usual and it's easy to miss it).

Difficult to spot the 3rd key, I missed that too ( this horn goes then up to F) but yes, somewhat archaic nonetheless.

 

[milandro]

this is, by the way one of the Schenkelaars ( branded) but made by Arta Guban Timisoara, these were the last of the saxophones they imported under their name and , in my opinion, the worst under the Schenkelaars brand.

This is a proper Arta Guban Luxor as you can see they are almost identical

 

[milandro]

All the links that were there are NOW old and expired after moths these things do happen. If people remove the originals these things happen.

 

[milandro]

Personally I wouldn't bother.

It is very expensive in the state that it its it will take a lot of work and money to make it playable and probably will never be worth the fuss or money that you put in it together with the starting price.

These Schenkelaars are the most puzzling of all.

They are not Orsi or Keilwerth or Arta Guban stencil and they appear to show some features common to Bohemian saxophones such as the pinky table.

However they have differences too. They may have been made by Dörfler & Jörka or with D&J parts or inspired to those (and a few more other brands too).

The rolled toneholes have incredibly thin rolled portion and I have seen them also worn out .

Whether they were assembled in the NL from bought pieces or made in Holland remains to be seen.

Often they are punch tamped Made in Holland somewhere (I don't see the eagle anywhere in the pics but it is totally immaterial seen the above considerations and the fact that I see tons of these in the NL without any eagle).

They are fairly common and often times fail to sell or sell for very low prices.

Here they have no market at all and only lately a few buyers resellers specialized in the low end market have taken to buy them for less than €100 if at all.

In view of this, the asking price is simply ridiculous.

I would stay very well away from it.

 

[milandro]

no that is a hole through a post where you can pass a screwdriver to reach the screw head under the hole.

 

[milandro]

Cheers

 

[milandro]

I see many people still claiming that all Schenkelaars are Keilwerths

Obviously not all are, nevertheless, some are certainly keilwerth and I have had several in all manner of versions that were. I tend to buy them with confidence because I really like their quality.

The last one that i have for sale is this Keilwerth Toneking soprano branded Schenkelaars , note how the horn is rather more advanced than most Keilwerth Toneking sopranos featuring front F and a hook ring which aren't always present, couple this to the fact that these have the modern palm keys, this is as advanced a keywork as the Tonekings have even been.