[Tranechaser]

Before Milandro asks, I did use the search function and didn’t find the answer.

I know the SBA tenor is famous for being made with both the the split cage and single cage for the low Bb and B keys. It also seems that sometimes, everyone is after one or the other. Are there any different performance characteristics associated with either one? Is the desire for owning a split cage just driven by the pictures of Coltrane holding his split cage SBA? I have one of each at my house right now and I think they are both great horns, but I’m trying to figure out what I should be looking for as I compare them. Any thoughts?

 

[Dr G]

I’d start by playing them. Do they sound different?

On horns this old, their current state includes their history of wear and repair - that will have significant impact on how they play.

 

[Tranechaser]

I'd start by playing them. Do they sound different?

On horns this old, their current state includes their history of wear and repair - that will have significant impact on how they play.

The split cage is a little brighter, the single cage is a little fatter. Im not sure if that due to the keyguard though. Both horns are in good shape and similar condition to one another. Both also have recent top notch overhauls.

 

[Dr G]

The split cage is a little brighter, the single cage is a little fatter. Im not sure if that due to the keyguard though. Both horns are in good shape and similar condition to one another. Both also have recent top notch overhauls.

Both with similar pads and resos?

Horns do tend to get a bit brighter when you get out all the leaks. Is there a difference in the immediacy of response?

Can you tweak either horn to sound like the other via mouthpiece/reed selection?

You are in an enviable position, having two Grail horns in top shape. Enjoy!

 

[saxyjare01]

If they play for you, that's great! A lot of SBA tenors have serious issues on the bottom end intonations wise.

 

[Sivari]

They are all different, Tranechaser, I tried four of them and my experience was the opposite

 

[Tranechaser]

The split cage is a little brighter, the single cage is a little fatter. Im not sure if that due to the keyguard though. Both horns are in good shape and similar condition to one another. Both also have recent top notch overhauls.

Both with similar pads and resos?

Horns do tend to get a bit brighter when you get out all the leaks. Is there a difference in the immediacy of response?

Can you tweak either horn to sound like the other via mouthpiece/reed selection?

You are in an enviable position, having two Grail horns in top shape. Enjoy!

So they both have similar pads, but the single cage (49K) has original metal resonators and the split cage (47K) has nylon resonators. One would think the metal resos would be brighter, but that's certainly not the case here. The sounds are more similar than they are different, so you can definitely tweak them to go either direction, but the natural tendencies of each horn are slightly different.

 

[Dr G]

Look for a thread by Simon regarding Vintage Horns. He works at TenorMadness, and has extensive experience in Selmer tenors. Your topic would be a nice addition to the thread.

Here it is: https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...-amp-A-Focus-on-Vintage-Horns-and-Mouthpieces

 

[mrpeebee]

Before Milandro asks, I did use the search function and didn't find the answer.

I know the SBA tenor is famous for being made with both the the split cage and single cage for the low Bb and B keys. It also seems that sometimes, everyone is after one or the other. Are there any different performance characteristics associated with either one? Is the desire for owning a split cage just driven by the pictures of Coltrane holding his split cage SBA? I have one of each at my house right now and I think they are both great horns, but I'm trying to figure out what I should be looking for as I compare them. Any thoughts?

Nice collection Tranechaser.

I remember we had a previous thread about this topic:
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?331330-SBA-Tenor-Single-B-Bb-Cage

I shared in post #3 in that thread what I could find back about this topic, including some useful information from Marvin Spivack.

As you probably know I own and play a 50xxx SBA from 1953, which is a very nice tenor. I've play-tested several other ones of friends, but have always preferred my own later SBA (being less bright and more spread than the earlier ones I tried).

 

[Lambros]

Did Selmer introduce a bore and/or neck taper change in the evolution of the original SA line? That would be something you may need to know when comparing the 2 of them. Selmers in general vary quite a bit even when serial numbers are closely grouped as well.

 

[saxyjare01]

For me, SBA's in the 47k-50k range just work. I can't say that for anyone else, though.

 

[Tranechaser]

Nice collection Tranechaser.

I remember we had a previous thread about this topic:
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?331330-SBA-Tenor-Single-B-Bb-Cage

I shared in post #3 in that thread what I could find back about this topic, including some useful information from Marvin Spivack.

As you probably know I own and play a 50xxx SBA from 1953, which is a very nice tenor. I've play-tested several other ones of friends, but have always preferred my own later SBA (being less bright and more spread than the earlier ones I tried).

Yeah, I saw that one, but I wasn't sure if a for sale ad was the best source for saying which horn was better (especially when the horn for sale fell into the most desirable range).

Interesting story, my friend has a 47K that's about 300 digits earlier than my 47K. His has the single cage despite being a slightly earlier model. It's the best playing SBA I've ever seen by a long shot, it just fills up the room and the tone is gorgeous. Apparently it was owned by a Frank Foster for many years, so he might have gotten a "special one" from Selmer.

 

[SimonJazzSax]

If they play for you, that's great! A lot of SBA tenors have serious issues on the bottom end intonations wise.

Only ones with the short bell. Long bell tunes fine.

Sent from my HD1925 using Tapatalk

 

[SimonJazzSax]

So they both have similar pads, but the single cage (49K) has original metal resonators and the split cage (47K) has nylon resonators. One would think the metal resos would be brighter, but that's certainly not the case here. The sounds are more similar than they are different, so you can definitely tweak them to go either direction, but the natural tendencies of each horn are slightly different.

Cool observation! Have you swapped the necks? The difference in frequencies might be the necks and not the resos per say. Small leaks can cause dampening of high frequencies, as can to tight of a neck tenon / receiver fit and many other things! You can nit pick it to death. I know you said they both have top notch overhauls. They'll break in and shift though over the course of the first few playing hours. So its a possibility. Do you know if they lapped and fit the tenon and receiver? Neck fit is everything. LoL.

Ultimately the 47-49xxx range is a very desirable SBA range and you can't go wrong with either one! They should be pretty similar. Not like comparing a 40xxx or 53xxx to them which would have different characteristics.

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[SimonJazzSax]

Yeah, I saw that one, but I wasn't sure if a for sale ad was the best source for saying which horn was better (especially when the horn for sale fell into the most desirable range).

Interesting story, my friend has a 47K that's about 300 digits earlier than my 47K. His has the single cage despite being a slightly earlier model. It's the best playing SBA I've ever seen by a long shot, it just fills up the room and the tone is gorgeous. Apparently it was owned by a Frank Foster for many years, so he might have gotten a "special one" from Selmer.

From what Randy's told me, Selmer would classify American assembled horns when play testing them into 3 categories.

1) for artists
2) for big cities/prominent dealers
3) everything else

If it was for Frank Foster and he was in contact with Selmer about getting a horn in the 50's, it very well could be a "special horn".

Jim not sure if Selmer did this in Europe etc. It wouldn't surprise me though.

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[greatlakeswinds]

Only ones with the short bell. Long bell tunes fine.

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How can you tell a long bow from a short?

 

[Tranechaser]

How can you tell a long bow from a short?

 

[milandro]

milandro doesn't ask often or anymore ( for years now) " did you use the search function?" because he knows that that's useless, for whatever reason people won't, can't or don't know how to , milandro generally offers the links to what people are looking for, spending his own time trying to help the person searching ( once you opened a thread there is no going back to not duplicating threads) if there are any, but you seem to not need them.

No good deed goes ever unpunished, as they say

Here they are anyway, as mrpeebee wrote ,

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?331330-SBA-Tenor-Single-B-Bb-Cage

Here is what I believe to be reasonably accurate, based on my studies of the Selmer Paris archives and my photographic database.

Altos
The Separate B and Bb cages were replaced by the double B/Bb cage in July 1936.
Between roughly 22300 and 22600, (about 200 Altos) both the separate and double cages appear.
Within this serial number range, the instruments shipped in early July or earlier all seem to have the separate cages and those shipped in late July or later have the double guard.
After roughly 22600, only the double cage appears.

Tenors
The Separate cages were replaced by the double cage in May 1952.
Between roughly 45900 and 47900, (about 800 Tenors) both the separate and double cages appear.
Within this serial number range, the double cage coincides with late May 1952 production or later.
After roughly 47900, only the double cage appears.

Note: I have seen one early SBA Tenor (34k) with the double cage, but this instrument also had substantial modifications done to it, so I suspect that the cage is not original.

Look for a thread by Simon regarding Vintage Horns. He works at TenorMadness, and has extensive experience in Selmer tenors. Your topic would be a nice addition to the thread.]

Indeed, continuing threads has the great function of completing information, but I've made that point many times before

 

[Tranechaser]

milandro doesn't ask often or anymore ( for years now) " did you use the search function?" because he knows that that's useless, for whatever reason people won't, can't or don't know how to , milandro generally offers the links to what people are looking for, spending his own time trying to help the person searching ( once you opened a thread there is no going back to not duplicating threads) if there are any, but you seem to not need them.

No good deed goes ever unpunished, as they say

Here they are anyway, as mrpeebee wrote ,

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?331330-SBA-Tenor-Single-B-Bb-Cage

Indeed, continuing threads has the great function of completing information, but I've made that point many times before

Yes, I did find that other thread with the search function. But the discussion on that thread is more focused on when the different cages were built, not the performance characteristics and why each style gets trendy at different times. Hence the reason I started a new one.

I am aware of the early altos with split cages as this horn is in my collection too!

 

[milandro]

Never mind, now we have another thread anyway, although adding to that thread would have still made sense sicnce you don’t mention anything in the title (which is what is going to be most evident in future searches) so how would anyone know this is focussed on one aspect rather than the other?