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Hi all

Need help in establishing the concept of the Individual Caged B and Bb keys on the Selmer Paris SBA. Which year did they begin making them, and which one are the best serial number wise. I notice John Coltrane played and had one in his collection, as does David Sanchez. What are the price ranges for the silver plated and gold lacquered engraved and non-engraved models. Thanks your opinions and knowledge from you experts here on our forum.


Philo
 

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Here some more reference points:

Saxpics:
http://saxpics.com/?v=mod&modID=13

Notes from Marin Spivack:
View attachment 198410

The first two ranges can have some intonation issues at the low B and Bb. These also have separate bell key guards. The third series (from around 48xxx) is seen as the best. The later, the more they come to early six horns. In this third series Selmer also changed from separated to on big bell key for the low B and Bb (like in the Mark VI). I own and play a 50xxx horn from 1953, a very nice tenor.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thank you guys... Good information...

This saved me from purchasing a SBA Tenor that I had my eye on, and I was familiar with the intonation problems on earlier SBA horns, but not to knock the opinion or knowledge of anyone, but was told by another very worthy forum member that the problem with the intonation was not really a factor, but on the individual playing the horn and his set up. I'll leave at that, because what I was really interested in was what serial number range were the best SBA's with the individual B and Bb cages. I now have an idea, so I'll go with the another nice minty SBA Silver Plate in the 50XXX range, which is in really beautiful condition... price is not bad either. Thanks again...

Philo
 

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Reply concerning mrpeebee's offering on Re: SBA Tenor Single B-Bb-Cage "In this third series Selmer also changed from separated to on big bell key for the low B and Bb"..........Hey - -
There is a BA from 1936 (1st year) with papers selling on eBay right now (08-08-18) with the double cage but my dad's 30's BA had the single cage set-up. So, you can't say that Selmer "changed" to the double cage at any juncture because even the very earliest BAs also came with the MarkVI style double guard. I have seen other BAs with this double cage and I have also seen SBAs with single individual cages on the low B and Bb keys. Go figure. It seems to me that it is possibly that they had a boatload of the single cages leftover and used-them-up whenever they felt like it. Maybe someone else knows the real info about it, mrpeebee.
 

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Reply concerning mrpeebee's offering on Re: SBA Tenor Single B-Bb-Cage "In this third series Selmer also changed from separated to on big bell key for the low B and Bb"..........Hey - -
There is a BA from 1936 (1st year) with papers selling on eBay right now (08-08-18) with the double cage but my dad's 30's BA had the single cage set-up. So, you can't say that Selmer "changed" to the double cage at any juncture because even the very earliest BAs also came with the MarkVI style double guard. I have seen other BAs with this double cage and I have also seen SBAs with single individual cages on the low B and Bb keys. Go figure. It seems to me that it is possibly that they had a boatload of the single cages leftover and used-them-up whenever they felt like it. Maybe someone else knows the real info about it, mrpeebee.
Well, personally I've never seen an early BA tenor with the single B/Bb cage and I've seen a lot of 'em. Your dad's 30's BA was a tenor and not an alto? The altos seemed to change to the single cage before the tenors did for some reason. Yes, later SBA tenors do indeed have the single cage, but I have no idea if there's a rough estimate serial #-wise when that happened. Maybe Douglas Pipher will see this and chime in.
 

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Well, personally I've never seen an early BA tenor with the single B/Bb cage and I've seen a lot of 'em. Your dad's 30's BA was a tenor and not an alto? The altos seemed to change to the single cage before the tenors did for some reason. Yes, later SBA tenors do indeed have the single cage, but I have no idea if there's a rough estimate serial #-wise when that happened. Maybe Douglas Pipher will see this and chime in.
Must be somewhere between 47k and 48k..
 

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Reply concerning mrpeebee's offering on Re: SBA Tenor Single B-Bb-Cage "In this third series Selmer also changed from separated to on big bell key for the low B and Bb"..........Hey - -
There is a BA from 1936 (1st year) with papers selling on eBay right now (08-08-18) with the double cage but my dad's 30's BA had the single cage set-up. So, you can't say that Selmer "changed" to the double cage at any juncture because even the very earliest BAs also came with the MarkVI style double guard. I have seen other BAs with this double cage and I have also seen SBAs with single individual cages on the low B and Bb keys. Go figure. It seems to me that it is possibly that they had a boatload of the single cages leftover and used-them-up whenever they felt like it. Maybe someone else knows the real info about it, mrpeebee.
That's not my info betterthanallof'em, I quoted a post with notes from Marin Spivack (a guy who has seen and restored many old Selmer's).

You could be right about BA's having one keyguard for low B and Bb, but I've never seen one (do you have link to that BA on eBay?). It also could be a repaired one, but checking some data on saxpics.com I see they also mention that BA's with one keyguard seem to exist.

See this link (scroll down to the bottom of the page): http://saxpics.com/?v=mod&modID=13

BA's generally have seperate keyguards for the low B and Bb. This is a very shaky means of determining the BA and SBA because the style of keyguards on the BA and SBA is kinda random.
Not sure if they are correct with 'kinda random' (Marin Spivack's notes seems more reliable to me), but the remark supports what you have seen.

I'm also curious to what Douglas Pipher has to say about it, I will inform him about this thread.
 

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I'm also curious to what Douglas Pipher has to say about it, I will inform him about this thread.
Here is what I believe to be reasonably accurate, based on my studies of the Selmer Paris archives and my photographic database.

Altos
The Separate B and Bb cages were replaced by the double B/Bb cage in July 1936.
Between roughly 22300 and 22600, (about 200 Altos) both the separate and double cages appear.
Within this serial number range, the instruments shipped in early July or earlier all seem to have the separate cages and those shipped in late July or later have the double guard.
After roughly 22600, only the double cage appears.

Tenors
The Separate cages were replaced by the double cage in May 1952.
Between roughly 45900 and 47900, (about 800 Tenors) both the separate and double cages appear.
Within this serial number range, the double cage coincides with late May 1952 production or later.
After roughly 47900, only the double cage appears.

Note: I have seen one early SBA Tenor (34k) with the double cage, but this instrument also had substantial modifications done to it, so I suspect that the cage is not original.
 

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Here some more reference points:

Saxpics:
http://saxpics.com/?v=mod&modID=13

Notes from Marin Spivack:
View attachment 198410

The first two ranges can have some intonation issues at the low B and Bb. These also have separate bell key guards. The third series (from around 48xxx) is seen as the best. The later, the more they come to early six horns. In this third series Selmer also changed from separated to on big bell key for the low B and Bb (like in the Mark VI). I own and play a 50xxx horn from 1953, a very nice tenor.
It’s a little of this and a little of that and a little spread but not quite with a sprinkle of Mark VI with a little fairy dust from an earlier model but retaining some of the qualities of the later...
Huh?

I haven’t played as many Selmers as him but I’ve noticed that from the BA through the change in the later, mid 60’s(?), MarkVIs each model seemed to get progressively darker.
I guess it was those damn classical guys helping with the design.
 

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Here is what I believe to be reasonably accurate, based on my studies of the Selmer Paris archives and my photographic database.

Altos
The Separate B and Bb cages were replaced by the double B/Bb cage in July 1936.
Between roughly 22300 and 22600, (about 200 Altos) both the separate and double cages appear.
Within this serial number range, the instruments shipped in early July or earlier all seem to have the separate cages and those shipped in late July or later have the double guard.
After roughly 22600, only the double cage appears.

Tenors
The Separate cages were replaced by the double cage in May 1952.
Between roughly 45900 and 47900, (about 800 Tenors) both the separate and double cages appear.
Within this serial number range, the double cage coincides with late May 1952 production or later.
After roughly 47900, only the double cage appears.

Note: I have seen one early SBA Tenor (34k) with the double cage, but this instrument also had substantial modifications done to it, so I suspect that the cage is not original.
Thanks Douglas. :)

I was also curious to your opinion about the remark of betterthanallof'em (and also saxpics.com) that there are original BA's with double cages.

Did you find that back in your archives or have you seen any of them?
 

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Thanks Douglas. :)
I was also curious to your opinion about the remark of betterthanallof'em (and also saxpics.com) that there are original BA's with double cages.
Did you find that back in your archives or have you seen any of them?
I have photos of over 6% of the total Selmer BA Tenor production, with examples from virtually every production batch.
I have not seen a single example of a Balanced Action Tenor with the double cage.
 
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