[milandro]

I was browsing the content of this ebay seller following a thread on Mark VI forgeries and what do I see?
A Saxholder forgery!
:soapbox:

Absolutely ridiculous and yes, cheaper, but not even THAT cheap

Be careful what you buy!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alto-Tenor...one-harness-/382844317145?hash=item59234cadd9

the giveaway are the adjusting plate (a bead here) and the hook ( a carabiner)

 

[JohnsonPowerSax]

People really will do anything for a buck.

 

[milandro]

something makes me think that the company which makes at least most of the parts ( not the hook and adjuster) has now taken to sell them independently from its inventor.

 

[buddy lee]

I don't know why this is unbelievable... when you work with factories in China, you can almost expect your designs to be copied.

 

[soybean]

something makes me think that the company which makes at least most of the parts (not the hook and adjuster) has now taken to sell them independently from its inventor.

this is what I thought too. It's a similar thing that happened to the guy who was making C Melody saxes in China.

 

[LostConn]

A product is not a forgery unless it represents an attempt to pass off an item as coming from some other manufacturer. I don't see any reference to "Saxholder" in this ad, so this is not a forgery. There MAY be a possible patent infringement issue, but that would be for the Saxholder company to pursue. Copying a useful product is perfectly legal as long as no trademarks or patents are infringed.

 

[Saxland]

I don't know who would want to risk their horn being droped and damaged with a cheap copy. Seems very high risk to use this counterfit. Who to trust with my prize horn, Jazzlab which works great, or a counterfitng mystery company. Which one is trustworthy and honest. Humm......



Buying a Jazzlab Saxholder also supports Jazzlab development of solutions they could bring to market.

 

[LostConn]

I don't know who would want to risk their horn being droped and damaged with a cheap copy. Seems very high risk to use this counterfit. Who to trust with my prize horn, Jazzlab which works great, or a counterfitng mystery company. Which one is trustworthy and honest. Humm......

Cheap copy? Judging by the price, possibly, although the difference is not huge. Risky? Perhaps. Mystery company? Of course. Counterfeit? No evidence of that.

 

[Saxland]

Do you believe it is right to copy another company's design? Are you defending the copycat company in principle? One glance and it is the Saxholder design, right down to the box. The Saxholder I have says Patent pending on it.

I mean cheap in the sense that in my view is likely to fail, not the price.


Why would you trust this company to to begin with to keep your prize horn safe?

 

[soybean]

It's called the "Back Rack".

 

[AddictedToSax]

I actually like the hook on this fake one better. It may be a copy of the first version of the Saxholder. The first version didn't allow the belly rest to rotate for comfort. The new one can be rotated to fit your body better. But you don't get the package with the pretty girl on the cover. Heh.

-edit- I take it back, the belly rest thing does rotate. The picture on the box shows it rotated 90d from the photographs. It looks so much alike I would bet it was made in the same factory. Jazzlab should build theirs in Switzerland where they are based and keep the rip-off Chinese factories out of it.

 

[lostcircuits]

something makes me think that the company which makes at least most of the parts ( not the hook and adjuster) has now taken to sell them independently from its inventor.

That's common practice, back in the days I came up with the idea of putting heatspreaders on computer memory modules and did the complete design including the holding clip. We had an "exclusivity" agreement with Neng Ty who manufactured them. A few months later, our biggest competitor started selling the exact same thing and Neng Ty claimed they had no idea where the goods came from. About 2 years later I moved over to our competitor after our company was acquired (and closed down) by Infineon and all of a sudden I was dealing with the exact folks again who were at Neng Ty who told me with a smiling face that the parts "fell off the truck" - and took me out for dinner at a 5 star restaurant in Tai Pei

 

[LostConn]

Do you believe it is right to copy another company's design?

As my previous two posts should have made clear, I am explaining the legal issues involved here because this thread badly needs such an explanation. This is not an instance of counterfeiting or forgery. It simply isn't, because this device is not branded or marketed as a "saXholder." I don't see any evidence at all of trademark infringement. The product is just a blatant copy, like the "Solist" baritone sax sold by Kessler, which Kessler openly boasts is a copy of a Yany B901.

As I mentioned, the Saxholder company MAY have a claim for patent infringement, if the company has valid patents that were stepped on in the copying scheme. It's also conceivable that the copying could have violated certain direct obligations between the two companies, such as a noncompete agreement or an NDA (nondisclosure agreement). Those rights, if any exist, could reflect a pre-existing working relationship that was breached by the marketing of this copy.

But again, simply copying a functional product is not against the law anywhere that I am aware of. Manufacturers don't have unlimited power to protect themselves from competition (and competition often means outright copying). They have to rely on the categories of rights summarized above.

 

[Saxland]

LostConn I appreciate you clarifying the legal aspects. They are well made points.

To my mind, it is wrong to steal Jazzlabs design, and a blatent grab for profit, at the expense of Jazzlab. I vote with my money and hope others will buy the original, and be put off by the copy. I hope the moral argument translates into denying the copy any sales.

The point about Kessler's Yani I espicially appreciate. Is Kessler's costing Yani any sales? I doubt it. But Jazzlab will be cost sales by the copycat.

 

[lostcircuits]

As my previous two posts should have made clear, I am explaining the legal issues involved here because this thread badly needs such an explanation. This is not an instance of counterfeiting or forgery. It simply isn't, because this device is not branded or marketed as a "saXholder." I don't see any evidence at all of trademark infringement. The product is just a blatant copy, like the "Solist" baritone sax sold by Kessler, which Kessler openly boasts is a copy of a Yany B901.

As I mentioned, the Saxholder company MAY have a claim for patent infringement, if the company has valid patents that were stepped on in the copying scheme. It's also conceivable that the copying could have violated certain direct obligations between the two companies, such as a noncompete agreement or an NDA (nondisclosure agreement). Those rights, if any exist, could reflect a pre-existing working relationship that was breached by the marketing of this copy.

But again, simply copying a functional product is not against the law anywhere that I am aware of. Manufacturers don't have unlimited power to protect themselves from competition (and competition often means outright copying). They have to rely on the categories of rights summarized above.

Yes, that is exactly right. If there was an NDA or an exclusivity agreement and the same manufacturer backdoors into the market then that could be prosecuted. If it is a copy and there is no protection through patents (I bought mine about 3 years ago and that's about the quickest a patent could be issued) then there is not much they can do. Alternatively, it is not unheard of that the saxholder did not sell as well as anticipated and they don't want to step on their own toes, so they put out a no-name brand to generate more sales and publicity. Anything is possible.

 

[Grumps]

I don't know why this is unbelievable... when you work with factories in China, you can almost expect your designs to be copied.

Yup. They'll make extras, ship 'em out the back door and undercut your market share with additional competition. And yeah, according to the ebay copy, they're made in China.

 

[milandro]

The saxholder has a Patented design (so I was told).

 

[Grumps]

The saxholder has a Patented design (so I was told).

Who cares. (says China)

 

[Saxland]

I didn't think of a company undermining their own product and partners and distributors.

LostConn I can now appreciate your explanation and your approach. Informative and thank you for posting. My apologies for challanging the messanger.

 

[jazzlab]

Dear SOTW community


My name is Silvin Jancic and I am the inventor of the SAXHOLDER, DEFLECTOR and SILENCER and CEO of JAZZLAB who is the producer of these items. Normally we do not discuss our own products in internet chat rooms or forums. But I think it is time now to do so.


Some facts about Saxholder (SXH)


- original SXH is 100% developed and tested in Switzerland


- original SXH is 100% made in European Community. No part comes from China. There is no connection to any Chinese manufacturer.


- SXH is patented in USA, European Community, Japan and many other countries. In several countries patent is still pending. Patent means that is is forbidden to copy it or a part of it. If somebody produces, sell, buy or uses a fake but patented item this is punishable. Our company will pursue any such attempt.


As you may know JAZZLAB is exhibiting this week at Musikmesse Frankfurt, Germany. There we found a Chinese company offering a fake Saxholder on their booth. After reporting this to the Musikmesse management a prosecutor has been involved. One hour later a police was at the Chinese booth, they confiscated all fake items, criminal complaint was filed and this company had to pay a punishment immediately. We didn't insist that they have to leave the show immediately, I hope that they learned that there are certain rules and laws to be followed.


I want thank to all users of our products at this time. If you have any questions, complaints or suggestions please feel free to write us.