[ratracer]

To set the stage, bear with me for two paragraphs - In another thread we were discussing a stand issue, in this thread I'd like to inquire of members, and especially techs regarding how often the low Bb and B mechanisms need, or should need adjustment after sitting on a stand. I've had my horn in the shop a couple times the last 3 years, once for damage to the bell that required the low Bb and B linkages to be adjusted and synced. At the same time, the tech soldered the bell to the tube. Subsequently, I've left the horn on the stand at home so I can just throw the mouthpiece together and get a few minutes of practice. Then, sensing some increased resistance, and my leak light indicating some leaky pads, I took it to the shop.

Upon the techs inspection he noted that my Bb and B needed adjustments, in spite of the solder job. He ran me through the process of taking the horn out of the case, which I do by grabbing the body tube, not the bell, and pretty much lift it straight out of the case, intending not to put any undue stress and strain on any of the horn. He then asked if I leave the horn out on the stand. When I answered in the affirmative he spoke up that that is most likely the culprit to the Bb and B mechanism needing adjustment.

I've been on SoTW since 2007, read a lot of old threads on how to take care of and maintain your horn, odd ball issues that arise, and I've never ran across this topic. So, having set the stage, I ask any and all members, and especially our esteemed techs if they've ever ran across this situation in their experience. Thanks in advance for all who pipe in here!

 

[Andrewplaysax]

I have also had my Tenor sent in multiple times exclusively for B and Bb misalignment. I rarely set my horn on a stand at home so I don't know if the stand is the main problem (although it very well could be.) In my case, I have probably fallen victim to mishandling my horn when taking it out and putting it away. Along with Bb and B misalignment, the bell of a tenor is very easy to bend if not treated very carefully which quickly leads to leaks but is also very easy to fix at home. The JLsmith video on youtube "straightening the sax bell" helped me a lot with my problem as I can now fix most of my B and Bb issues at home.

 

[1saxman]

Jeez. How would your poor horns survive the real world of grabbing them up off the stands and setting them back quickly? Unless your stands have some kind of protuberance that strikes the bell keys thru the key guard, the stand isn't going to cause this kind of problem. You're far more likely with alto and tenor to get the stand's lower rest into the C# key but that usually only affects the pad.
BTW, please don't look at any old pictures of Stan Getz and others picking up their tenors by the neck.
Ratracer; I think your bell is still moving around on you. What kind of horn is it?

 

[jgreiner]

The only reason I can think your B and Bb would go out of whack by grabbing the born by the body tube instead of the bell when you take it out of the case would be because you're also squeezing and/or putting stress on the low B/Bb hinge tubes. As for ANY kind of damage resulting from leaving your horn on a stand? Umm.....no. Not unless whatever kind of stand you're using is a piece of crap and somehow a part of the stand is pushing against the low B or Bb (or low C#) pad cups.
As for putting any "undue stress" on the horn by lifting it out of the case by the body tube.......seriously? Grab the damn thing by the bell already!

 

[saxoclese]

The most common bell key adjustment and alignment issues I see in my work is when the bell has had a knock or a bump on one side and is out of alignment with the body. Typically the bell keys will then either be light in the front or the back and depending on which determines which side to give it an "equal but opposite" knock or bump to get it back in place. If a saxophone is "carefully" set in a stand I see no way that the bell or bell keys could be negatively affected. It is usually when players don't use a stand and lay the sax roughly on its side that the bell gets moved or the LH table keys get bent.

 

[ratracer]

Jeez. How would your poor horns survive the real world of grabbing them up off the stands and setting them back quickly? Unless your stands have some kind of protuberance that strikes the bell keys thru the key guard, the stand isn't going to cause this kind of problem. You're far more likely with alto and tenor to get the stand's lower rest into the C# key but that usually only affects the pad.
BTW, please don't look at any old pictures of Stan Getz and others picking up their tenors by the neck.
Ratracer; I think your bell is still moving around on you. What kind of horn is it?

Yeah, I shudder to think what I put my little alto through from 5th grade through high school with nary an issue.

My tenor is a Kessler Custom Deluxe tenor. It plays pretty sweet but took a spill knocked the bell out of alignment. Took it into the tech and along with some other work it was due for, the bell was soldered to the body tube to ostensibly stabilize and leak proof that seal. Couple of years later with some leaky pads I was told it needed those low bell keys adjusted again, in spite of the solder job. That was a about 6 months ago actually, and just recently, reading through some other threads it came to mind and I thought I would broach the subject here. I'll take it in in another 6 months for a checkup to see how it's holding up. I bought it in 2007, had it in the shop four times since it's purchase and it seems to hold it's set up pretty well, normally. I'll find out more in a few more months.

 

[ratracer]

The only reason I can think your B and Bb would go out of whack by grabbing the born by the body tube instead of the bell when you take it out of the case would be because you're also squeezing and/or putting stress on the low B/Bb hinge tubes. As for ANY kind of damage resulting from leaving your horn on a stand? Umm.....no. Not unless whatever kind of stand you're using is a piece of crap and somehow a part of the stand is pushing against the low B or Bb (or low C#) pad cups.
As for putting any "undue stress" on the horn by lifting it out of the case by the body tube.......seriously? Grab the damn thing by the bell already!

At home it sits on a Hercules stand. When I take it out, it sits on a Saxxy stand, so, they should be fine, good quality stands. As far as taking it out of the case by the bell? Eh, it's a habit to take it out of the Protec case by it's tube. Usually the middle sometimes the top of the tube. I just slip my hand around the tube, usually find my middle finger in the tube to bell circular brace, and lift. Don't really think about it actually.

 

[ratracer]

The most common bell key adjustment and alignment issues I see in my work is when the bell has had a knock or a bump on one side and is out of alignment with the body. Typically the bell keys will then either be light in the front or the back and depending on which determines which side to give it an "equal but opposite" knock or bump to get it back in place. If a saxophone is "carefully" set in a stand I see no way that the bell or bell keys could be negatively affected. It is usually when players don't use a stand and lay the sax roughly on its side that the bell gets moved or the LH table keys get bent.

And that's exactly what happened to precipitate my question. The sax took a fall, bent the lip of and torqued the bell. That got fixed and the bell soldered. Fast forward a couple years, take the horn in for a tuneup and I'm told the bell got torqued again in spite of the solder. The tech informed me that it might be leaving it in a stand and not in the case. I have a degree in mechanical engineering so I know a little bit about mechanic of materials, dynamics of machinery, etc, etc. Given how the bell and tube are somewhat offset I could see how it's "possible" (however remote...) the bell keys, while the sax sitting on a stand, could conceivably fall out of adjustment, but, it just doesn't seem that there is enough weight sitting in a near upright position for the center of gravity to be in such a configuration so as to cause enough torque to torque the tube to force those bell keys and mechanisms out of alignment.

So, just thought I'd invoke a discussion to see if perhaps this has occurred to anyone else or they have ran across it in their vast experience. So far one response has replied affirmatively. I appreciate all the comments, thanks!

 

[ratracer]

I have also had my Tenor sent in multiple times exclusively for B and Bb misalignment. I rarely set my horn on a stand at home so I don't know if the stand is the main problem (although it very well could be.) In my case, I have probably fallen victim to mishandling my horn when taking it out and putting it away. Along with Bb and B misalignment, the bell of a tenor is very easy to bend if not treated very carefully which quickly leads to leaks but is also very easy to fix at home. The JLsmith video on youtube "straightening the sax bell" helped me a lot with my problem as I can now fix most of my B and Bb issues at home.

Thank you very much! I'll do a duckduckgo search for the video and check it out!

 

[jgreiner]

Along with Bb and B misalignment, the bell of a tenor is very easy to bend if not treated very carefully which quickly leads to leaks

I'm sorry but that is simply NOT true. Yeah, if you throw the thing around like the Samsonite gorilla maybe, but again......no. Just.......no. If you're having to "realign" the bell with any kind of frequency, I guarantee you the body/bell ring isn't sealing and/or loose.

Regarding the JL Smith vid on straightening the bell.. Yeah, that's the proper way, but please DO NOT do that at home. Let's say you manage to get the bell aligned pretty much where it used to be (judging by the current tone hole indents in the pads). You damn well better get it exact (which is VERY unlikely) because if you don't, you'll need to either re-float the pads or replace them. In order to do that, you'll be making a trip to your tech. I've used that technique to get whacked bells more aligned, but I've never managed to get it exactly back to the absolute original position. At minimum, I still had to re-float the low B and Bb pads.

 

[turf3]

If I had to guess, without seeing the thing, I bet the bell brace is one of those big rings attached to both sides with screws? I bet something's loose there. I'd make sure all that attachment is very tight.

Then I would look at the case. Make sure your case isn't pressing on things in a way to deflect the bell, or the key mounts (posts) when the case takes a bump.

No way that a horn with the bell attachments properly secured is going out of adjustment just from sitting on a stand. No way.

 

[smash]

The saxophones that are rented now to my students are so soft, I can easily push the bells in and out of adjustment. I am talking about the Yamaha, Selmer, etc. branded horns here. Did the op mention the brand? I've been throwing my horn on and off a stand for 25 years and never had an issue. Check to see if you have the correct position on the bottom brace. Sax stands are interchangeable between alto and tenor but you have to select the correct position.

 

[GaSax]

I suspect it's something to do with the rod tubes connecting the keys. Have you checked to see if there is any play in them what so ever? Are they bent any?

Just have a hard time believing the bell got bent, just by sitting on a stand. My old 10M never got banged up in any way since I've had it. But I do have a very tiny bit of play in the Bb and B key rods etc. Occasionally they don't play so easily.
I am guilty of picking it up by the tube bell brace area which may have contributed to the problem.

 

[tntsax]

The only reason I can think your B and Bb would go out of whack by grabbing the born by the body tube instead of the bell when you take it out of the case would be because you're also squeezing and/or putting stress on the low B/Bb hinge tubes. As for ANY kind of damage resulting from leaving your horn on a stand? Umm.....no. Not unless whatever kind of stand you're using is a piece of crap and somehow a part of the stand is pushing against the low B or Bb (or low C#) pad cups.
As for putting any "undue stress" on the horn by lifting it out of the case by the body tube.......seriously? Grab the damn thing by the bell already!

i played 33 years in a band and had my tenor, alto, and trumpet on the stand and never had problems with my horn ,and i'd grab it from the case by the bell and the top of the horn and never had it in for repairs of any kind and it sat in the case not played for 3 years before i sold it, and it still played when i demonstrated it to the new buyer upon selling it