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A lot of good advice and I agree with the suggestions that you "look for another band" to join. One that wants and needs a sax for the type of music that they play and the music that you enjoy. Many of us have been in your situation from time to time over the years and it is a downer. As previously mentioned we have also heard it on TV and at concerts where the person running the sound has very limited understanding about horn section balance but does find the bass drum and the loud guitars. Your singer is not going to change. No need to fight it. Find a situation that is positive.

And as previously mentioned; Bobby Keys' solo on "Brown Sugar". Even the pros are not always in the mix!
 
A lot of good advice and I agree with the suggestions that you "look for another band" to join. One that wants and needs a sax for the type of music that they play and the music that you enjoy. Many of us have been in your situation from time to time over the years and it is a downer. As previously mentioned we have also heard it on TV and at concerts where the person running the sound has very limited understanding about horn section balance but does find the bass drum and the loud guitars. Your singer is not going to change. No need to fight it. Find a situation that is positive.

And as previously mentioned; Bobby Keys' solo on "Brown Sugar". Even the pros are not always in the mix!
100% spot on. Hi John, Yes this is an ongoing problem and will always be when others control you and your sound in the mix. Has been for years.
 
If you can't hear it get a paint peeling setup. Maybe a metal mouthpiece with a bigger tip opening. I can Hit 100db quite easily on my horn. So if I'm also on a mic that's way way loud for most rooms. No you are much louder on sax than his vocal. The levels won't be the same.
Get on a wireless rig and walk around the floor to hear the mix during sound check
 
If you can't hear it get a paint peeling setup. Maybe a metal mouthpiece with a bigger tip opening.
Just in case some inexperienced players are reading this thread, I have to respectfully point out (with apologies to all those on here who are well aware of this) that the material of a mpc has nothing to do with volume. That's down to the design. Yes a high baffle, especially, and, arguably, larger tip can help generate greater volume in a mpc. By far the loudest mpc I have played is a HR, high baffle mpc (RPC 120B). One of the most difficult to get a lot of volume out of was a large chamber metal mpc (a Link). Which is not to say you can't generate significant volume on a Link, but with some of them it takes a lot more work. So just wanted to set the record straight on that point.

I don't think a 'paint peeler' is necessarily the answer. But definitely a high baffle mpc will help; they aren't all paint peelers. Good monitoring and a microphone with a good sound system and a band that has some sense of volume control and dynamics is the best solution.
 
So sacrifice your concept of sound and play a paint peeler to compete with guitar amps that go up to 12 and a vocalist going through mains??? Yeah, okay. In my experience, there's NO saxophone mouthpiece that can compete with that and if there is, I sure as hell wouldn't play it.
Cover band = correct concept = loud = Junior Walker. Otherwise, find a band and genre that matches your [less-rock] concept.
 
Absolutely not true. My dukoff super power chamber is probably 5 times louder than my hr meyer. I've done plenty of rock gigs on it and I had no issues.
I've also played mostly on a mic with no monitors only house pa. Some clubs have monitors but most don't. If you are going to gig in that style I'd get a powered monitor and run my own sound as well as making sure my mouthpiece was appropriate for that style.
 
Attended a local "Pops" concert last night. Someone gave me a free ticket.

They had about 12 strings (violins, violas, cellos) and a brass and reed section. 4 saxes (two altos, 1 tenor and bari). It was a tribute to some Southern Rock recording groups out of the past (Allman Brothers, Lynyrd Skynyrd, etc.) who recorded at two of the local studios back in the day. Also had a full rhythm section. Very impressive stage setup with nice lighting and fake smoke.

Not sure why they had the strings. They were not in the mix at all. The featured guitar player's sound filled the arena and could probably be heard downtown. The drummer was waaaay up in the mix. The sax section was heard once in a while on softer selections. Both of the altos and the one tenor took rides. We heard a little bit of one alto solo on a rock song but faintly. He was blowing his guts out.

Such a shame for the musicians. But at least the saxes were not the only ones last night.

Also attended concerts by KC & the Sunshine and Earth, Wind & Fire this past year. The electric bass and bass drum did a number on the entire sound with tremendous volume. Especially EW&F. I seem to hear more electric bass and bass drum through the sound systems these days than I ever heard in the past on live concerts. Guess this is the new trend maybe.
 
Guess this is the new trend maybe.
Possibly so. One reason I don't adhere to new trends (unless I ever find one I like). The thing for us sax players to do is take charge and either join a band that understands the concept of dynamics, a good mix, and how to play music, as opposed to mind-numbing jackhammer noise. Or even better, form your own band and take charge of the situation, including song selection (old school R&B, blues, funky jazz, in my case) and volume control. The volume thing may take some compromise & tactful reasoning with the guitarist & drummer of course. Anyway, that's my solution with my band.
 
Cover band = correct concept = loud = Junior Walker. Otherwise, find a band and genre that matches your [less-rock] concept.
Yeah this.
Heavy work playing in amongst guitars, overblow your guts out and sacrifice your tone.
Drive me crazy
I know this is an older thread but there is an important thing a lot of players aren't realizing about this sort of job. - all the warmth in your sound gets buried no matter what you do. Almost all that carries is the edge and the very high mids. So if you sound is all warmth and no edge there is no solution, you will never be in the mix, it's not acoustically possible. Stop worrying and learn to get a good bright sound.

You can get by with smaller tip large chamber pieces (not larger tip opening - larger tips being louder is like an urban myth), or more baffle. Most guys with problems in this department that I see should be on softer reeds or need to be able to play louder in the first place regardless of idiom.

That said, any way you do it, you do need amplification, and you are at the mercy of the sound guy for the house sound. Some good workarounds for that earlier up the thread.
 
BobM, what you are failing to realize here is that the singer is the most important member of the group. Most people attending a rock or pop venue are going there to hear the singer. Most famous bands see the singers go on to have solo careers, where the remaining band members usually just end up moving to other bands or just fading away. Lead guitar players may be the exception. The percentage of people that are at a rock concert to hear a sax player is pretty small. In fact I'm thinking that most of them are probably your friends.

My suggestion would be to move on to other genres of music. An R&B band with a full horn section or a instrumental jazz group. Trying to buck heads with a singer is a losing proposition ...
 
Cover band = correct concept = loud = Junior Walker. Otherwise, find a band and genre that matches your [less-rock] concept.
You're completely missing my point. That is, I have NO problem "conceptually-wise" playing in a cover/rock/blues band(s). What I DO have a problem with is if any of those bands freaking bother to have a saxophone player or horn section and they're completely buried in the mix and/or not even heard, it's just plain stupid. It's not about my concept or lack of projection in my sound (trust me, that's not an issue). It's about simply being heard and adding to the overall sound of the group. I'll deal with stage volume and guitar players (and some singers) who for some reason need to have their stage volume at about 150db, but in monitors and especially through the mains, if I'm hired to play/solo with a group and I'm going to blow my left one off, I damn well better be heard........period.

BobM, what you are failing to realize here is that the singer is the most important member of the group. Most people attending a rock or pop venue are going there to hear the singer. Most famous bands see the singers go on to have solo careers, where the remaining band members usually just end up moving to other bands or just fading away. Lead guitar players may be the exception. The percentage of people that are at a rock concert to hear a sax player is pretty small. In fact I'm thinking that most of them are probably your friends.

My suggestion would be to move on to other genres of music. An R&B band with a full horn section or a instrumental jazz group. Trying to buck heads with a singer is a losing proposition ...
Again, I HIGHLY doubt if anyone won't be able to hear the singer. It's not about being able to peel paint with your sound. It's about the saxophone and/or horns being heard in the monitor mix and mains. If someone is bothering to pay me to play as a soloist or in a horn section, you'd think they'd want us to be heard. Lastly and to clarify, I'm not talking about playing in a "hard rock" band. It's simply stupid to have a saxophone thrown into something like that. I'm mostly referring to cover/blues bands that have at least somewhat of a need/desire for saxophone/horns. If we're going to be hired, we should damn well be heard.
 
You're completely missing my point. That is, I have NO problem "conceptually-wise" playing in a cover/rock/blues band(s). What I DO have a problem with is if any of those bands freaking bother to have a saxophone player or horn section and they're completely buried in the mix and/or not even heard, it's just plain stupid.

...

If we're going to be hired, we should damn well be heard.
No disagreement on that point, John. That would be my perspective too.

On the other hand, as some of my colleagues in various past lives would quip, the pay is the same regardless of whether you feel good about it. In this case, you are being payed to be on the stage and play. Is the person that is paying you happy with your contribution? That is often the bottom line.

On still another hand, every performance is an audition for your next gig. Would your band mates recommend you for your contribution? I'm thinking yes, but be aware of whether they think of you more as "that prima Donna horn player that is always complaining about something".

I don't have much skin in this game. I made a choice a long time ago not to play in electric groups any more. I blew 'til I injured myself - literally injured the lining of my lungs trying to be heard (look up "pleurisy").

Be well.
 
Also attended concerts by KC & the Sunshine and Earth, Wind & Fire this past year. The electric bass and bass drum did a number on the entire sound with tremendous volume. Especially EW&F. I seem to hear more electric bass and bass drum through the sound systems these days than I ever heard in the past on live concerts. Guess this is the new trend maybe.
I had a similar experience. I was given a ticket to attend a popular '80's band performance (some sort of "and Friends" weekly concert for aging rock aficionados. I went only because my wife wanted to go.

The mix was horrible. The bass player was awful but incredibly prominent. Same with the drums. I watched the singers' lips and their throats as well as the guitarist's fingers. The fingers and the throats didn't match the sound. I figured that the only musicians actually playing were the drummer and the bass. The bass player was just awful. The drummer was good. What I heard of everyone else was excellent, but their lips, throats, and fingers didn't match the music.

They were syncing to prerecorded media. The lead guitarist spent about three minutes tuning a guitar solely to convince the audience that it was a live performance.

In a situation like that, if the sax is live, it doesn't matter what he sounds like as long as he's visible when his spot comes up.
 
I had the good fortune of playing with a band (Legends Do *** n Roll in San Diego) in the 90's. We had a soundman with EARS and his own PA when needed. As a saxman, I still needed to hear myself, so I used a little Anchor stand monitor right behind me - and it's signal went to the board also. I WAS HAPPY. Before then - and after that, it was back to the same old sound problems with some other bands Fortunately, I still used my little Anchor monitor (with a touch of effects) right behind me. It was strong enough that I could also pierce a guitar player's ears (if necessary...LOL). It is easy to carry - mounted on a strong tripod stand and carries easily on your shoulder. I don't know how a saxman can know what intonation they are even getting with their head between guitar amps.

To comment on other points made.
I do agree that the lead singer is the MOST important sound..... solo instruments next. Still, most PA people still can't get that right even.
It takes a LOT of power and pushed air nowadays for a good PA system. The days of one 10" speaker are gone. My idea of a good PA is that if I'm standing in front of it (not TOO close), I can feel the air of the trombones, saxes and even the lead singer - just as if I were standing in front of the trombone, sax sections, singers. All without knocking me over - REAL sound. That's not easy for a PA to do.

We have to realize ( and I truly regret it) that music has changed ….. aside from rap (puke). Audiences want to, and have gotten used to it now, the feeling of the bass shaking their intestines - and other instruments doing a similar job. Now I LOVE a strong bass (and drums, etc..), but when you're 2 blocks away and only hear a bass until you get right in front of the bandstand, that's too much. Most bassists don't realize how far and strong their frequencies go. Of course, SOME love it.
I see that many players are using in-ear monitors now. I haven't used them, but they seem like the way to go. I guess you'll still need a soundman to work with you.
 
Lastly and to clarify, I'm not talking about playing in a "hard rock" band. It's simply stupid to have a saxophone thrown into something like that. I'm mostly referring to cover/blues bands that have at least somewhat of a need/desire for saxophone/horns. If we're going to be hired, we should damn well be heard.
+1. IMO, there's no place at all for a sax in a "hard rock" band, or maybe I should say no place I'd want to be (I won't be in the audience either).

And a REAL blues band won't be playing at hard rock sound levels! I still remember well, way back when I was in high school (late '60s) the blues got popular, players like B.B. King became mainstream, and I actually heard blues bands playing with dynamics, where the volume would go way down, then up again, but never at the ear-splitting levels of the rock bands at the time. And there were local clubs that featured the blues; many of the bands had horn players and the rooms were small so the volume stayed reasonable. Of course there were exceptions where rock players adopted the blues and played them with a rock beat at high volume, but to me that's not the blues.

And along these lines, I totally agree with Reet's suggestion to move on to a more 'sax-friendly' music genre.
 
I did a loud outdoor amphitheater concert yesterday and dealt with this issue. I did a little of the “holding back on soundcheck” trick that sometimes works. The stage volume was way too high but fortunately I was behind all the amps.
Before the sound check the guy put a monitor in front of me. I just told him to unplug it or leave it off. I want to hear what’s going out in the theater not what the monitors are giving me.
It was a Steely Dan tribute band so maybe they thought I should be heard for a change. It felt comfortably present from what I could tell was coming out of the mains.
The rare time that happens.
 
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