Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
428 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Replaced my ancient Ponzol 120 M2 with the new stainless 110 M2. I like the increased tonal pallete. May need the M2+ one day but enjoying this piece at the moment except for one thing. It has developed rust pitting on the table and under the ligature. I use fibracell and normally clean it all up every 2nd day. Been in touch with Peter and basically it's my fault according to him as he seems to think it's my saliva and my habit of leaving my reed on. I have had a little trouble in the past with a brass mouthpiece ,but this was after 10 odd days in the case and affected the reed more than anything. He was very defensive about the stainless but I can't help feeling that surgical stainless should be non affected by any bodily fluids.
Any-one else had any problem with this? If so have you contacted Peter about it?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
3,536 Posts
Stainless steel requires proper maintenance. Be careful from now on and you should be fine. Be sure to put it away totally dry and wiped down. Thats just the nature of the beast. Stainless will last forever and never need a reface... if you treat it right.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Stainless Steels do corrode, but generally a lot less than carbon steels. Also, not all stainless steels are the same. Different grades hold up better than others. Sucks, I know. Ponzol came across as a butthole to me when I asked him to replace a bite plate. He did a crappy job and bitched about it quite a bit. Another bummer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,256 Posts
are there any other types of plating,or solid silver...that are also prone to this problem???
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
·
38,847 Posts
I would say that you should never leave your reed onto the mouthpiece regardless of the material that it is made of or plated with. I have seen pitting and flaking on mouthpieces where the reed was left for long periods of time even wen the mouthpiece wasn't used at all.
Saliva is hardly ever very acid or basic (it is a myth that saliva is strongly acid.......I have published before the normal value for saliva which are under normal circumstances 6.2 to 7.4 therefore from slightly acid to slightly basic )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliva

Saliva contains several enzymes which might react with the reeds, also it is possible that certain combinations of metal and any water (saliva is mostly water) could produce a redox or a galvanic reaction
http://books.google.com/books?id=zb...onepage&q=redox metal saliva reaction&f=false

Stainless steel does corrode and can be corroded by galvanic corrosion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,028 Posts
Stainless Steels do corrode, but generally a lot less than carbon steels. Also, not all stainless steels are the same. Different grades hold up better than others. Sucks, I know. Ponzol came across as a butthole to me when I asked him to replace a bite plate. He did a crappy job and bitched about it quite a bit. Another bummer.
I had another "well-known" mouthpiece guy in South Florida (no, not Dukoff) screw up a good vintage mouthpiece putting on a bite plate. I still think the old fart did it on purpose.
Mouthpieces guys seem to have issues. Maybe because they are frustrated players?
I say have a go at doing it yourself since you would probably do just as well from my experiences. Or just buy a used one in the same facing on eBay. It would more than likely be cheaper and the end result would be the same.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,975 Posts
... but I can't help feeling that surgical stainless should be non affected by any bodily fluids...
It probably is not a surgical grade stainless steel, even though his marketing info says it is. Cheaper 400 series SS has some iron in it. 300 series SS does not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
"surgical grade" just means the cheapest that industry can get away with. AL 6061 is "aerospace grade" Aluminum. AL 7075 is also "aerospace grade" but costs twice as much and is generally way better. If they advertise "aerospace grade" you can bet which one you'll be getting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,256 Posts
it looks as if silver is near the top of the list(the good end) but still corrodes?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2007-
Joined
·
5,528 Posts
Substances like chlorine bleach will corrode even high-grade stainless steel. I had this happen a few years back in a 20 million dollar containment chamber at work.

There's a chance Peter Ponzol is using a stainless that is more machinable than the standard stainless alloys. You should contact him directly. He has responded to me before on issues with his mouthpieces. I'll bet he can explain it or offer a solution.

PS: If you want to make sure it doesn't corrode, use a Hastelloy designed for that purpose. That stuff can withstand a nuclear explosion, literally.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
It has developed rust pitting on the table and under the ligature. I use fibracell and normally clean it all up every 2nd day. Been in touch with Peter and basically it's my fault according to him as he seems to think it's my saliva and my habit of leaving my reed on. He was very defensive about the stainless but I can't help feeling that surgical stainless should be non affected by any bodily fluids.
Any-one else had any problem with this? If so have you contacted Peter about it?
I actually had my M2 Stainless get rust-like corrosion underneath the bite plate. I sent Peter an email and he told me to send the mouthpiece to him and he will replace the bite plate. He just emailed me and he told me that it was actually bacteria from moisture getting underneath the bite plate. He is supposed to send it back to me by the end of the week, so I will let you know how it turns out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,879 Posts
Mojo, maybe there was a typo in your post. All steels contains mostly iron and some carbon. However, all steels are not magnetic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Presence of Nickel makes 300 series SS non-magnetic.

on corrosion:
"Unprotected carbon steel rusts readily when exposed to air and moisture. This iron oxide film (the rust) is active and accelerates corrosion by forming more iron oxide. Stainless steels contain sufficient chromium to form a passive film of chromium oxide, which prevents further surface corrosion and blocks corrosion from spreading into the metal's internal structure."
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
·
38,847 Posts
I have been in touch with Peter and as I said he says it's my fault.
blaming the customer is the easiest of the ways to avoid one's own responsibility..........leaving the reed onto the mouthpiece is not good practice but it is hardly uncommon and unless specifically warned against it any subsequent problem is the manufacturer responsibility. Marketing a stainless steel product as " surgical quality steel" creates expectations in the customer and confuses him (as much as the idiotic bell metal does!). I recall a similar incident with a Jody Jazz and JOdy intervened on this forum and actually changed the mouthpiece. Full stop. This, I think, Peter Ponzol should do, regardless. I own two Ponzol Mouthpieces (Bronze) and I was thinking of upgrading to stainless steel, I am now doubting it on account of the fact that this is not acceptable behaviour from someone who sells his products at a premium price.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
I have been in touch with Peter and as I said he says it's my fault.
I didn't get the feeling that he was being mean about my bite plate, but I did get the feeling that he was blaming me as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,975 Posts
Mojo, maybe there was a typo in your post. All steels contains mostly iron and some carbon. However, all steels are not magnetic.
No typo. I was just plain wrong! I knew there was a big diff between 300 and 400 series SS, but it is the nickel content. 400 series has no nickel so the balance of iron is higher.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
428 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Well I solved the problem. I dipped the mouthpeice in concentrated [85%] phosphoric acid. This is well known as a rust inhibitor. i now can leave my reed on for some period of time and the rust has not come back. The rust that was there is now black [FePO4?]. This is inert. Keeping an eye on it and taking my reed off more than I did but it seems to have done the trick. Still feel that I've got a bit of sub-standard stainless but the piece is suiting me better and better as time goes on. Depth with brightness.http://forum.saxontheweb.net/images/icons/icon6.png
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top