[jolind]

Who can help?

What clarinet did Russell Procope play?

I noticed in some Ellington videos that Jimmy Hamilton was playing an Oehler System and wondered if Russell Procope did so as well. I did some research but couldn't find any answers yet.

thanks,
Jo

 

[Merlin]

Every vid I've seen of Hamilton shows him playing a Boehm system clarinet, while all of the pics and footage I've seen of Procope show him with an Albert/Oehler system instrument.

 

[jolind]

thanks, yes you're right! I watched this video and confounded Procope.

 

[Merlin]

I don't have links; the films and photos I speak of are physical ones in my collection and in books I own.

 

[Merlin]

At the end of this video you can see Jimmy Hamilton, Harry Carney and Russel Procope playing clarinet. Jimmy is playing Oehler system but Russell is hardly on camera. Could you post links to the photos or videos you are referring to?
thank you, Jo

That's Procope playing Oehler.

In the shot of the 3, Hamilton is on the left playing Boehm; in the individual shot of Procope, they've changed places/camera angle.

 

[jolind]

thanks again! Meanwhile I found several photos of Hamilton that show him playing boehm system. I confounded him in the videos i saw.

 

[daigle65]

Thanks for posting that video, a piece of history!

You can hear the characteristic Hamilton fills during Procope's solo.

What are the main differences between a Oehler and an Albert system? They look very similar.

 

[Merlin]

Oehler is very similar to Albert. There are more refinements to the mechanism to provide alternate fingerings similar to the Boehm system, as well as vents that improve the intonation. The core fingerings are the same.

 

[jolind]

they are indeed very similar. the albert system and the oehler system use the same fingerings but they differ in mechanics. in their history they have the same predecessors. here's a quite detailed explanation, in german though:
http://www.die-klarinetten.de/content/deutsch/deutsch-vs-boehm.html

 

[Dave Dolson]

Thanks for that video clip.

I own a German System (Oehler) clarinet and the only differences between my German System and my old Albert clarinets is the presence of some additional venting to enhance intonation on the newer instrument. The fingerings are the same.

I sure didn't find any alternate fingerings similar to Boehm System (which I normally play). On the Oehler/Albert design, the lack of the Boehm's upper/lower joint connection (thus enabling an L1 and R1/2 fingering for Eb/Bb) is really distracting for me, but others don't seem to struggle with it like I do.

Another thing, my old Alberts have much better intonation than do my German System with all the additional venting. DAVE

 

[daigle65]

Thanks guys, I learned something new.

 

[patmiller]

Here's another version that has a better angle of Russell Procope during his The Mooche solo. Lovely view of his circular breathing technique at the end. Was he an early proponent?

 

[jolind]

In Germany there are different systems around based on Oehler. Some of my students play instruments that don't have all features of the developed full Oehler system.

 

[Oric Muso]

I think Procope is playing a Albert in the clip posted. The three keys down the right hand side are liek the type used by Johnny Dodds and Jimmy Noone. The Selmer Improved is a calrinet of this type.http://www.uark.edu/ua/nc/NCCollectionPage/Page/SelmerImprovedAlbertSystem.htm
More on Albert systems http://usuarios.multimania.es/albertsystem/

 

[Dave Dolson]

jolind: I am no expert on these issues but I have a grasp of the basics. Essentially, the fingering system for Alberts and Oehlers is also called The Simple System. They all use the same fingering system, different from the Boehm System. So, one can pick up an Albert or an Oehler clarinet and get the same note out of each one by using the same fingerings.

The differences come in inter-connected vents that allegedly effect intonation. I say "allegedly" because while my new Yamaha German System clarinet plays exactly like my Albert System clarinets, the intonation is not as good as the old Alberts. And, there are additional differences depending on how complicated the keywork is on each clarinet. For instance, my German System is a 20-key model but Yamaha (and the other German System makers like Hammerschmidt and one that escapes me as I write this) also makes clarinets with less or more interconnected keywork but they only provide less or more intonation-venting, as I understand it.

After buying my Yamaha German System and teaching myself to play it (suitable for public performance), I concluded that the more complicated keywork of the Oehler did little for this particular instrument other than to throw more metal into the mix, thus complicating things. I'm glad I bought it - I had fun with it, but I'm back to my Buffet Boehm and very happy with it. DAVE

 

[jolind]

Dave: Thank you for sharing these experiences! I play boehm clarinet as a doubling instrument myself and have not as much experience with german systems. But what you say makes perfect sense to what my instrument maker told me about saxophones: The easier they are constructed, the better they sound. Too much mechanics doesn't help the sound - that's why he prefers to overhaul and play older instruments (like me). I also heard the same by most experienced clarinet players I talked to, they all tend toward older and easier built models.
I actually heard about the same arguments in music history: When new clarinet systems were developed so that it was possible to play in different keys on each instrument, many composers and players complained about the deficit in the typical clarinet sound caused by different construction.

 

[Dave Dolson]

Well, I'm not so sure that additional keywork is a negative overall. I'm just saying that on MY Yamaha German System clarinet, the additional venting didn't seem to work as intended.

Had I purchased a simpler Yamaha German System clarinet (or another German brand) I may not have had one problem I came across with the YCL 457-20 I bought. That problem was that the intonation-vent-connection to one of the tone-hole rings was of such a nature that if I didn't deliberately ensure the ring was totally depressed when passing over that note, the mechanism failed to close the intonation vent and the whole horn went south. That became annoying time after time. Could it have been corrected by a technician's adjustment. Maybe, but at that point, I was about done with the struggle.

On saxophones, we've become familiar with additional keywork and while I love my vintage saxophones, I admit that my modern ones are better players - the additional keywork that comes with modern saxophones sure hasn't been a hindrance to my playing. Tone-wise, it is more about me than the age of the horn or the presence of additional keywork.

And, to bring up a continuing argument, I don't think the Albert clarinets sound any different than Boehms, although many will disagree. I'd defy anyone to listen to my playing (if they could get through the clinkers) and identify which system I was playing without looking at my clarinet.

So, while I think a plain old Albert (and I own two now, have had more) has a better scale than my new Yamaha, I also think my Buffet Boehm (an RC Prestige from the early 1980's) has a better scale and sounds better (and plays much more easily for me) than all of the Alberts and Oehlers I've owned. DAVE

 

[patmiller]

And, to bring up a continuing argument, I don't think the Albert clarinets sound any different than Boehms, although many will disagree. I'd defy anyone to listen to my playing (if they could get through the clinkers) and identify which system I was playing without looking at my clarinet.

So, while I think a plain old Albert (and I own two now, have had more) has a better scale than my new Yamaha, I also think my Buffet Boehm (an RC Prestige from the early 1980's) has a better scale and sounds better (and plays much more easily for me) than all of the Alberts and Oehlers I've owned. DAVE

I agree 100% Dave. The only difference in MY sound between Boehm and Albert involves the mistakes I make, particularly the forked F. All the players I know that have converted have all done so out of a feeling of solidarity with their heroes - the black players of the golden age of New Orleans music. One close friend said "well I'm retired now and it's an interesting project." Look at Woody Allen for example. I'm sure he would sound equally bad on Boehm.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I'd love to do the things that Bechet, Dodds, Noone, Lewis, and the others did on Albert, if for no other reason than to be true to the genre. But it just isn't in the cards for me. I can do what I do on Boehm good enough for my purposes. Pat, I'll send you a PM. DAVE