[Shade of Blue]

Hi everyone, I just posted this in the marketplace as a "for trade" ad also, but thought I might get some good discussion/advice here.

I just got an RPC .120 (red letters) for tenor and I like it a lot but would like to trade down a size to a .115. Also, I know his pieces can vary a lot in baffle size/shape, and this one seems to have a very long and defined rollover baffle. Definitely not the sharp drop-off I've seen in pictures of some of his "B" pieces, but seems like significantly more than I've seen in pics of other "rollover" or "no-baffle" RPC's. I've tried to capture this in photos, which of course is difficult. It doesn't play as bright as I would expect it to from looking at the baffle, it has a very focused sound maybe right in the middle of the bright/dark spectrum, but I'm hoping if I can find one with slightly less baffle, it will be a little darker and end up right where I want it, in addition to going down to .115 to make it a little easier to play with the same reed strength I'm used to.

Here are some photos of the piece so you can (maybe) see what I'm talking about:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vGfJxhLpu2QFYSQz5

Does anyone know if this is "standard" for his non-baffle/rollover pieces, or is it indeed longer than normal? Does anybody have a .115 with very little baffle they'd like to trade?

I've been rotating through a bunch of pieces recently, from STM NY to Tenney Jazzmaster to Ben Allen "Jazzmaster" to Lamberson J8, which is my favorite I've ever played so far, and the RPC seems like a logical next step in the quest to hone in on those very specific overtones I love. The RPC is both brighter and darker than the J8 in different ways, the J8 is kind of "wider" or more "spread" sounding with a significant amount of "warmth" or "buzz" but without any harsh high overtones so it doesn't get too shrill at high volume or in the upper register. The RPC is a little more focused with less "stray" overtones but still with depth and fatness to the sound, still not very bright at all but the tiniest bit harsher, which I'm thinking a lower baffle would reduce and I'd have a perfect balance.

 

[JL]

Just a couple of thoughts. I've owned 3 different RPC "B" tenor mpcs, all blue letter models (which came after the red letter ones). When I say different, they were each unique, all very good mpcs. Two were 120B and one was a 115B. The 115B was noticeably brighter and the 120Bs had more body and a bigger sound, which I definitely preferred. Of the 120Bs, one has a more rounded baffle similar to yours, but with a bit more of a 'bullet' cut out. The other has a fairly sharp drop-off baffle and is edgier and the loudest mpc I've ever played.

I kind of wonder if Ron ever made two mpcs that were exactly the same. As I said all three of these were different.

Keep in mind that, all other things being equal, a wider tip opening will tend to play darker than a smaller tip. But the height & shape of the baffle will have the biggest impact on how bright & edgy the mpc plays. So if you go to a 115 with a baffle identical to your 120 mpc, it will likely play brighter. You're on the right track to look for a lower baffle on the 115 if you don't want it brighter. If you want to go darker, either look for one of his rollover baffle mpcs, or stick with the 120 tip and a lower baffle. If you can find one.

However, bottom line, with the RPC mpcs I think you can assume you'll get a very well-made, excellent mpc, but you can't generalize about them because they were often made to 'spec', based on what the player told Ron they were looking for.

 

[Shade of Blue]

Yeah, for sure. The reason for wanting to go down a size is that it's more resistant / takes more lip pressure than what I'm used to on my other pieces. Interestingly, my J8 (listed as .120) feels basically the same to play as my other .115 pieces, possibly due to a longer / less resistant facing. Fred told me his facing is 52 which is definitely longer than my Link (I think 48 if I remember correctly), I've heard RPC facings are "long" too, but not sure if that would be consistent across his pieces. If I had to guess though, I'd say this piece is shorter than the Lamberson which I think would explain it being noticably more difficult/fatiguing to play with an equivalent reed.

 

[KeithL]

I owned a red letter RPC .105 tenor piece for a while. Your pictures look more like a rollover than high baffle model to me. It may be a slightly higher and longer rollover but it doesn't look to have enough baffle that I would call it a "high baffle" piece compared to many of the RPC "B" pieces I've seen. Doesn't surprise me it takes a lot of air to make it work.

 

[JL]

Your pictures look more like a rollover than high baffle model to me. It may be a slightly higher and longer rollover but it doesn't look to have enough baffle that I would call it a "high baffle" piece compared to many of the RPC "B" pieces I've seen.

I looked again and I think you're right Keith. Probably not a "B" (high baffle), which would also explain why it's somewhat resistant with that large tip. The 120B pieces I have play fairly easy with the higher baffles.

 

[KeithL]

I looked again and I think you're right Keith. Probably not a "B" (high baffle), which would also explain why it's somewhat resistant with that large tip. The 120B pieces I have play fairly easy with the higher baffles.

Exactly - this is sort of the good and bad of RPC pieces. As you are well aware they are almost all made to order. Ron wasn't making many (if any) pieces for shops to stock so there's no real standard. I've played a few RPCs over the years besides the one I owned when they've shown up at Sax Alley for sale used. They're all different. Some are big blows and require a lot of air others not so much. It was dependent upon what the original customer asked Ron to make them. It's not like getting a new piece from Jody or Theo where the specs of a given model are very precise and the manufacturing is typically very accurate so the variation between one piece and the next is extremely small. Buying an RPC used without playing it first is sort of like putting your quarter in one of those machines at the supermarket that sold the tiny toys in those plastic bubbles back in the day; sometimes you got a really cool little toy you liked and sometimes not.

 

[Dr G]

Fred's 'pieces were a real lesson to me - they taught me to just play, rather than analyze them. Some things about them just don't make sense, but I really loved the way they play. I played a couple of Lamberson 'pieces that were "perfected" by other mouthpiece techs, and found that they just didn't work any more. The balance of nuances in Fred's work is what makes them play so well.

You've got some fine mouthpieces. Enjoy!

George

Yeah, for sure. The reason for wanting to go down a size is that it's more resistant / takes more lip pressure than what I'm used to on my other pieces. Interestingly, my J8 (listed as .120) feels basically the same to play as my other .115 pieces, possibly due to a longer / less resistant facing. Fred told me his facing is 52 which is definitely longer than my Link (I think 48 if I remember correctly), I've heard RPC facings are "long" too, but not sure if that would be consistent across his pieces. If I had to guess though, I'd say this piece is shorter than the Lamberson which I think would explain it being noticably more difficult/fatiguing to play with an equivalent reed.

 

[JL]

Buying an RPC used without playing it first is sort of like putting your quarter in one of those machines at the supermarket that sold the tiny toys in those plastic bubbles back in the day; sometimes you got a really cool little toy you liked and sometimes not.

I wouldn't go that far. I agree with the rest of what you said, that Ron made most of his mpcs to order. However, they were all very good mpcs and if you have a fair idea of what you like in a mpc you can make a reasonable judgement based on tip size & the baffle shape/size. Then if for some reason you don't like it, it would be easy enough to sell on.

 

[John Laughter]

Interesting post. Can't recall when I bought my first one from Ron but it was a 125B. I saw a lot of discussions on SOTW back in the day about players who liked his work. I had been using the Rovner "Deep V" for years. So I called Ron and he sent the 125B. Played it for a long time.

Then I posted a note on SOTW to buy a 120B and I received a message of one for sale. The member said that he had asked Ron to make one that would take a baritone reed. So I bought it since I was using the bari on the "Deep V". Not doing the bari reed any longer.

The baffle on this 120B is not smooth at all. Has some very small gouge marks in the baffle area. It absolutely does the job. Bright with very little resistance and very loud. I asked Ron to make another one as a "backup" just in case something happened to it. He said he did not recall anyone ordering one to use a bari reed and wanted me to mail it to him. I was reluctant to put the m/p in the mail so that did not happen. And I wonder if he did the "gouge" thing or if someone else did it after the SOTW member used it. I never saw that in his other baffles.

Ron made a couple of 120B's over the years (including a clear one) for me and I bought others on Ebay. As stated above, some very good and some that (did not work for me). All very different. I gave several to Sax Gordon last year. He also likes to raise the roof but has since gone with the SYOS.

I also have an RPC HB 90. I asked Ron to make a duplicate but Ron told me that he no longer made that style because he did not like the bright tone of the HB. Very steep baffle like the Metalite. He did send another 90B but it was a bit more tame.

We had some interesting and looooong conversations :mrgreen: He was very knowledgeable and a very nice person!

Some of his pieces are now on Ebay listing for 2 and 3 times what Ron charged so hopefully you will find an SOTW member who has what you need and for a reasonable price or trade.

 

[KeithL]

I wouldn't go that far. I agree with the rest of what you said, that Ron made most of his mpcs to order. However, they were all very good mpcs and if you have a fair idea of what you like in a mpc you can make a reasonable judgement based on tip size & the baffle shape/size. Then if for some reason you don't like it, it would be easy enough to sell on.

It's not a knock on Ron. He was very skilled and made a lot of great mouthpieces. Part of the issue I believe is people calling him and telling him what they think they want when they don't really know. Pieces that are customized for a specific player are all going to play a bit differently. You can get into the ballpark by looking at tip openings and baffles but that's no guarantee. It's not that the pieces are bad or poorly made it's just they may not work for you. I have several pieces that have been refaced including ones by Mojo, Eric Falcon, Brian Powell, Phil-Tone, and others. The facing work is all top notch but the pieces don't all play particularly well for me. The RPCs I've tried have been similar; some I get along with some not so much. I couldn't have told you just by looking at them which I was going to like and which I wasn't.

 

[Shade of Blue]

Does anyone have an opinion on whether the baffle on mine looks like it falls in the "normal" range of the rollover pieces? Like I guess what I'm wondering is if it's more than most. Also, are there just 2 distinct models, "baffle" and "rolllover," or is there also like a "plain" or no-baffle model?

 

[Dr G]

Does anyone have an opinion on whether the baffle on mine looks like it falls in the "normal" range of the rollover pieces? Like I guess what I'm wondering is if it's more than most. Also, are there just 2 distinct models, "baffle" and "rolllover," or is there also like a "plain" or no-baffle model?

That looks like a rollover to me. As far as I recall, there were only two models advertised. As others have underscored, the amount of baffle was tuned to the individual buyer's request (and Ron's interpretation).

 

[JL]

It's not a knock on Ron. He was very skilled and made a lot of great mouthpieces. Part of the issue I believe is people calling him and telling him what they think they want when they don't really know. Pieces that are customized for a specific player are all going to play a bit differently. You can get into the ballpark by looking at tip openings and baffles but that's no guarantee. It's not that the pieces are bad or poorly made it's just they may not work for you. I have several pieces that have been refaced including ones by Mojo, Eric Falcon, Brian Powell, Phil-Tone, and others. The facing work is all top notch but the pieces don't all play particularly well for me. The RPCs I've tried have been similar; some I get along with some not so much. I couldn't have told you just by looking at them which I was going to like and which I wasn't.

+1. All of that makes perfect sense.

I can only speak from my own experience dealing with Ron some years back. At the time I described what I was looking for and the music I was playing (blues, R&B) and he sent me exactly what I wanted (115B). Then a couple years later I called him to get a 'backup' and he suggested going to a 120B for a bigger sound and he was right; I ended up selling the 115B. Finally after a few more years I wanted something with a bit less edge and he made me a 120B with a different baffle that did have a bit warmer tone quality. He was very good at giving you what you wanted, assuming you knew what you were looking for and could describe it to him.

I still have those two 120B mpcs and can't bring myself to part with them (just yet) even though I've moved on to different mpcs.

But you're right, it's hard to know for certain whether you're going to like any mpc until you play it.

 

[KeithL]

+1. All of that makes perfect sense.

I can only speak from my own experience dealing with Ron some years back. At the time I described what I was looking for and the music I was playing (blues, R&B) and he sent me exactly what I wanted (115B). Then a couple years later I called him to get a 'backup' and he suggested going to a 120B for a bigger sound and he was right; I ended up selling the 115B. Finally after a few more years I wanted something with a bit less edge and he made me a 120B with a different baffle that did have a bit warmer tone quality. He was very good at giving you what you wanted, assuming you knew what you were looking for and could describe it to him.

I still have those two 120B mpcs and can't bring myself to part with them (just yet) even though I've moved on to different mpcs.

But you're right, it's hard to know for certain whether you're going to like any mpc until you play it.

Yup - I agree 100% - the guy was a master at delivering a custom piece if you knew what it was you wanted, could convey that accurately, and were honest about what kind and level of player you were. I think there are two other things that come into play; one is people who think they are much better or "stronger" players than they are and the other, at least as it appears to me, was Ron's ability to accommodate people's desires even if they weren't always reasonable. Like the guy who's only been playing for 18 months and wants to sound like Dexter, Ammons, Rollins, etc.. He could make pieces that would help people get close to being able to sound like that even though they didn't really have the chops to do so.

I think Ron also made a lot of pieces for guys like you who are big blowers and can handle pieces with either more resistance or big tips without completely loosing control of your sound and intonation. I know I can't play pieces like that for any length of time. I have a few (not RPCs) .115-.120 tenor pieces but even ones with a fair amount of baffle I can only manage for maybe 45 minutes or an hour tops before I'm really struggling. Many people seem to think you can just use a softer reed with bigger tips but it's just not true. If you don't know how to put air through the horn with good support and have a solid embouchure a big tip with a soft reed just makes you sound like an out of tune kazoo. I've played RPCs with fairly large tip openings that aren't that hard to play and others, like the one I owned for a while, that had smaller tips but blew with a great deal more resistance. My RPC sounded great if you were willing and able to blow it. Unfortunately for me as a weekend warrior type only playing 10-12 hours a week at the time, I didn't have the air or chops to really make the piece work. That's not Ron's fault especially since I picked the piece up used and didn't order it directly from him. The guy I sold it to was an older, stronger, and more experienced player and he loved the piece.